Re: [greenstone-users] Re: Display issue in browse classifiers

From Jenn Cole
DateTue, 19 Apr 2005 09:32:26 -0700
Subject Re: [greenstone-users] Re: Display issue in browse classifiers
In-Reply-To (426461E0-9080505-cs-waikato-ac-nz)
Yes, I was trying to use the searchVlist format statement, but it wasn't working.  I did use the [parent:Title] in my VList when I got the wrong output.  I am not quite sure if what I am trying to do is even possible. I only want the browse list to show the appropriate browse term and then once inside the term I want the parent title and title for documents to show up.  I tried your format statement and it did not work either.  Using your statement I got:

Adams, Alfred:Adams, AlfredAdams, Alfred
 Page 32:Page 32Page 32
 Page 2:Page 2Page 2
 Page 3:Page 3Page 3
 Page 4:Page 4Page 4
 Page 5:Page 5Page 5
 Masset:MassetMasset
 Page 6:Page 6Page 6

I havve tried using the [numleafdocs] in a format statement before and nothing worked.  Maybe the way my html is done, greenstone is unable to use the [numleafdocs].  The metadata is extracted from my html file.

I am sending along a sample document so you can see how I have my metadata coded in the html.

This is one of the very last issues I am dealing with before the collection is released.  I really do appreciate all of your assistance.

Jenn Cole

Katherine Don wrote:
Hi Jenn

Is the collect.cfg you sent the one that gave you the funny output?
Because it doesn't look like it should to me.
Were you trying to use the SearchVList format statement for the VList?
Did you use [parent:Title] in your VList when you got the wrong output?

You could try switching on [numleafdocs] so that classifier nodes use a
different format to document nodes.
eg
{If}{[numleafdocs],[Title],{If}{[parent(All': '):Title],[parent(All':
'):Title]:}[Title]}

This should display the Title for the nodes, and parent Titles and Title
for documents.

Regards,
Katherine Don

Jenn Cole wrote:
  
Hi John,

Here is my collect.cfg for that collection.

Thanks,
Jenn Cole

John R. McPherson wrote:

    
On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 13:06 -0800, Jenn Cole wrote:

 

      
When I use the AZ classifier lists the individual documents matching
the 
classifier term are listed only by page number.  This doesn't let
users 
know from which title the pages are from.  I would like a display 
similar to the search result display.  However, when I tried playing 
with the vlist format statement, my AZ classifier list looks like
this: 

A-D:Aboriginal Title and Rights
A-D:Agents
A-D:Agriculture/Land Cultivation
A-D:American Relations
A-D:Aquaculture
A-D:Assimilation
A-D:British Columbia Terms of Union
A-D:British North America Act
A-D:Burial Sites
A-D:Canneries

the next level looks right:

A-D:Aboriginal Title and Rights
    Meeting at Port Simpson:Page 39
    Kwawkewlth Agency:Meeting with Quawshelah Band
    Nass Agency:Meeting at Grease Harbour
    Kwawkewlth Agency:Meeting with the Principle Tribes of the 
Kwawkewlth Nation
    Meeting at Port Simpson:Page 43
    Skidegate:Page 34

My question is how can I get rid of the A-D: display on the classifier
list?
   

        
Hi,
maybe it would be easier if you gave us the relevant bits out of your
collect.cfg file.

John

 

      

    

  


<<attachment>>
Type: text/html
Filename: QCedithtml.html

Royal Commission on Indian Affairs for the Province of British Columbia : Queen Charlotte Agency

ROYAL COMMISSION ON INDIAN AFFAIRS FOR THE PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
QUEEN CHARLOTTE ISLAND AGENCY STENOGRAPHIC REPORT INDEX
 
 
Masset ..............["D1 to D22" inclusive]                        Page 1 - 32

Skidegate ...........["D23 to D26 inclusive]                    33€ 51

Memo by Chairman                                                        52

Examination of Ashdown Green                                    53 - 58  

 

QUEEN CHARLOTTE AGENCY ROYAL COMMISSION ON INDIAN AFFAIRS FOR THE PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
at Massett, B.C. September 9, 1913.
HENRY EDENSHAW was sworn as Interpreter.
THE CHAIRMAN briefly explained the scope and purpose of the Commission. The address of welcome (Exhibit Dl) was read by Chief Councillor A. Adams, to which the Chairman replied, as follows: The Commissioners are very much obliged for the address which you have just presented and for the kind way in which you have received us. We trust with you that our work may be satisfactory all round, not only to the Indians but to the governments which we represent, and that it may be the means of bringing increased happiness and prosperity to the Indians. Insofar as the rights which you speak of are concerned we have nothing to do with the question of Indian title, I stated in my remarks at the beginning of this meeting. With regard to your past history, I do not wonder that you look back upon that with very great regret and I think that would be especially true of a people who are descendants of such men as the Haida Indians who, I have always understood, were among the strongest of the Indians in this part of the world. We cannot deal in any way with the matters which you suggest should be brought before the Privy Council, because that is a judicial court. We have no such power and no such authority. You have referred to the condition which the Indians present in this village and you have stated that you have none of you been tried as yet in the courts for any criminal offence, and I think that is most creditable to you. Judging from the assemblage of men I see before me this morning, I am not surprised to hear that such is the case. I have heard the fact that you are just as you have described most emphatically stated by the gentleman here on my right, who is the clergyman lab- ouring among you. I think it is the desire of all white men to see the Indians advance and become more prosperous, because it is better to live with the people who are advanced in civilization. Of course there are exceptions, but I am satisfied that all the best thinking white people are desirous of seeing the Indians advance in civilization and prosperity. We have nothing to say with regard to your advancement in Chris- tianity, because we know that you are for the most part members of a Christian community. I do not think anything has given any member of the Commission more pleasure than to see that the Indians throughout the Bella Coola Agency are members of various Christian churches. There is more cleanliness and order among the Indians who have the blessings of Christianity' among them. In regard to the matter you have touched on as to your having no voice in the councils of the nation, and no power to elect your representatives to parliament. I believe I am right in stating that an Indian may obtain the franchise. They have done so down in Eastern Canada. It seems to me that the power which an Indian has to obtain the franchise should not be as small as it is. But it depends largely upon his intelligence. I understand that if you can convince the authorities by certificates, recommendations, etc., that an Indians has the qualifications to obtain the franchise he can do so. And judging by the appearance of the Indians here I cannot see any rea- son why they have not got the franchise. I think that the Indians powers as-regards this might be enlarged and it is a matter which I think might very properly be brought under the notice of the government. Some of the fight strings which are at present around the Indians in this respect might be in some ways relaxed. Other addresses were read by Henry Edenshaw (Ex. D2), Mark In- graham (D3), Roger Weart (D4), Peter Hill (D5), George Jones (D6).
-1-
 
 2
Chief Councillor Alfred Adams remarked that some of the Indians in other parts of British Columbia are being treated about a thousand times better than those of the Queen Charlotte islands, some of them having as much as 90,000 acres and some as much as 60,000 acres. He continued: While the entire band here, numbering 300, have only 2000 acres between them. We want if possible to meet your commission at a joint meeting of the councils of the Masset and Skidegate tribes.
The Chairman: Who was it wrote a letter to me with respect to our going down to Skidegate?
Mr. Thomas Deasy: I wrote a letter to Mr. Bergeron asking if the Council of the Masset Indians could be taken on to Skidegate; but the reply you sent has not as yet been received.
Alfred Adams: Our idea is to give you fullest information of our troubles here and in order to do so we would like to give it to you full while you are right here in our village. We will give you what we can and then what we cannot give you here we can give you after consulting our Skidegate friends. We want to see the Skidegate people and give you our joint views after a joint meeting with the Council of the Skidegate Indians. We have only small reserves and the Skidegate people have only small reserves and we do not want to say anything that might conflict with what they have to say. We have not been treated as other wards of the government have. Our trouble is that other Indians in British Columbia receive better treatment than us in every way and we do not know the reason for it.
The Chairman: That letter which Mr. Deasy wrote us was received stating that you wished to be conveyed to Skidegate after the meeting here and an answer was sent you stating that we would take you down but had no means of bringing you back. That letter apparently has not reach- ed you yet. You stated that you wanted to put some questions to the Com- mission before you adjourned. What are they?
Alfred Adams: Why are we treated in such a way? While the other Indians in this province are getting so much more than us? It strikes us that the law states that all Indians should be treated alike. We are wards of the government and as wards of the government we should be treated like every other Indian. It is a kind of problem to us - a real problem to us - that these things should be so.
The Chairman: You want to get our answer to the question you put before you have your consultation at noon?
A.    Yes.
The Chairman: Well where are these Indians living that have from sixty to ninety thousand acres in their reserves?
A.    I could not say right away but I have read of it. I may have been mistaken. Some of them I am positive have 30,000 acres.
Dr. McKenna: Are you referring to a whole agency or to only one Band?
A.    One community only.
The Chairman: In reply to that question, the Commission have to say to you that they do not know what governed the minds of previous commissioners who allotted these reserves -- why they gave such large quantities of land in one locality and such small quantities in another, but possibly it may have been due to the fact that they did not meet the chiefs of the Band here. If they had met the chiefs of the band and they made requests for more and the bands did not get more we do not know but what it might have been given. So far as I have been able to gather the large allotments of land which you refer to have been made down in the East where the Indians are far removed from the sea. They catch no fish and the only way these people can make their living is by farming and it is quite likely that in making these large allotments they gave them an allowance of land which would enable them to earn their living
- 2 -
 
3
that way and have enough land to live on besides. Then they came here to the coast they probably saw that the Indians made their living by fish- ing and considered that they did not require more as they were not farming. We have heard other Indians on our way here state that they did not want more land as they were fishermen. It may therefore be that the Commissioners at the time these reserves were laid out came to the con- clusion that you did not want more land as you were fishermen. Some of the channels we came up, if they were laid off -- if the land in the vicinity was laid off in one block as they have been in the East, the land would be of no use whatever except for purposes of cutting firewood and logs, and that is what may have passed through the minds of the com- missioners at the time these reserves were made. There is one instance that has been brought to my attention by Dr. McKenna: that is that at Metlakahtla and Port Simpson they have large quantities of land laid off for reserves.
Continuing, the Chairman said: Mr. Shaw has drawn to my attention to the fact that there is no provision in the provincial law in which an Indian may exercise the franchise. I was in error in stating that there was such a provision.
Rev. Mr. Hogan: I can give you the reason why these people want that land at Metlakahtla and Port Simpson. It was because they had a man to represent them in the person of Rev. William Duncan, who spoke for them, but these Haidas were away at different places at the time when Judge O'Reilly came here; he came in the fishing season when most of their people were away and the few old people who were here probably did not understand what the commissioners were saying. That is where the result of the business lies. These Indians should have had 1800 acres in each of the different places to which they belong, instead of having 1800 acres here for the whole band, scattered among the various fishing stat- ions. Of course when those commissioners came here they used to like to travel in fine weather and they could not wait until the people came back.
THE CHAIRMAN: It may be as Father Hogan says, and it may be that they got more land than they are entitled to at Metlakahtla and Port Simpson, but you will bear in mind that this Commission is just going around to settle matters of that kind.
ALFRED ADAMS: I must say that we are entitled to the whole Island.
THE CHAIRMAN: Anything else to say?
A. We want to be treated the same as other Indians in British Columbia. Those Indians who are capable of doing things for their betterment are treated by the Government pretty fair and what ever that is we want to get a hold of it. We are all equal in the eyes of the government and of the King, and we want to be treated alike. That would satisfy us all. There is another trouble which however we don't want to put before you today and that is the trouble we have in our local matters.
THE CHAIRMAN: Do I understand you to say that there are other respects than the division of the land, in which you consider you have been unfairly treated? If there are, we would like to know them. Have you any other question to complain of apart from the land question and the Indian Title?
ALFRED ADAMS: We should like this information to go through our Indian Agent, in full, because he has studied our conditions and knows everything in Masset now and we want to see the Agent give you full information. We are not treated by the Government as well as other good Indians are.
MR. SHAW: You say that you do not get equal treatment in regard to the land, is there any other respect in which you consider you do not get equal treatment?
ALFRED ADAMS: We have a lot of ways, but we cannot give you all the trouble we have until we get the things in writing. These things have got to be in writing to give you.
REV. WILLIAM HOGAN: One thing is that the Indians have no protection for
- 3 -
 
4
their fisheries. The Indians here used to be able at one time to go out to Hecate Straits and bring back large hauls of Halibut and other fish, but the Americans were allowed to come and steal the fish and have almost exhausted the fish supply. And what did the Government do in the way of protecting the place. They sent a small cruiser of about 8 knots to chase an American vessel which was capable of doing 15 knots an hour with ease. It is a shame and disgrace that these things should be.
THE CHAIRMAN: We will hear you later Mr. Hogan, please don't interrupt now?
MR. MACDOWALL: (To Alfred Adams) Did I understand you to say that your Councillors want to consult together today and put your grievances or requirements, in writing?
A.    Yes.
Q.     Then when you have put those grievances in writing you want to go down to Skidegate and present those grievances to us there?
A.    Yes.
MR. SHAW: Is there anything more to present to us here today then?
ALFRED ADAMS: Well, the Chairman has been asking us questions and if you will hear our grievances again we shall be glad to give them. We are the Children of the Government the same as the other Indians of the Province, and whatever they are getting from the Government we want to get the same.
THOS. DEASY (Indian Agent) We did not know anything about the Scope of the Commission until this morning and now it is going to take some time to get together all the information which you require. I might say that one great question with the Indians here, is that some of the Indians on other Reserves in British Columbia have received large sums of money for reserves which have been sold, for Railroad purposes etc., and have also received other reserves in lieu of those which they sold There is one Indian girl at Skidegate, from Victoria (SONGHEES INDIAN) reputed to be worth $18,000.00. The Indians here are of opinion that when a reserve is sold, the money received for it, should be divided equally among all the Indians in the whole of the Province of B.C. MR. SHAW: It is their idea that any money received from any sale of Reserve in no matter what aprt of the Province that Reserve is located, should be divided not between the people living on that reserve, but between all the Indians of the Province?
A.    Yes, that is their idea.
MR. WHITE: Why, if that idea were carried into effect, the Indians would not receive more than about 5 cents each.
CHIEF COUNCILLOR ADAMS; at this point handed in a further letter (Exhibit D7).
THE CHAIRMAN: We will take this letter and file it and when we come to make up our report we will give it our consideration. At the Afternoon session, the Reverend WILLIAM HOGAN addressed the Commission as follows:
Mr. Chairman, and members of the Commission, it affords me very great pleasure to have the privilege of meeting you all here today. I wish to bear my testimony to the character of the Haida Indians, as long as I have known them. I am in my 21st year of service on this Coast and during that time I have known a great deal of them. The progress shown by these Haida Indians during the time I have known them has been nothing short of wonderful. They are today and have been for many years living the lives of good true, and trustworthy men
- 4 -
 
5
and reliable Christians. In the old days the Haidas were amongst the bravest of brave Indians and had a name which struck terror into the hearts of the neighbouring tribes. Now you see them a quiet peaceful, law-abiding intelligent community. I am sorry to say that many of the brave old men have passed away and lie in a silent tomb. I must also bear testimony to the splendid work which has been done among these Indians by the Venerable Archdeacon Collison, Rev. J. H. Keen, and Rev. William Collison. These men laboured among the Haidas for many years, and you see here today the effect of their labours. At a time when the Dominion Government were not in such a position as they are today to devote financial help (because they had not the money 30 or 40 years ago that they have today) the Church Missionary Society of London, England, stepped into the breach and supplied teachers as well as missionaries, and the Dominion Government paid a very very small sum to help in the work. It is well for us to look back and remember the progress and development which has taken place in the condition of the Indians, and what has helped to bring that band of men to their present position. Many of them, as you are aware, addressed you today in good English. In their lives they are good and true men. I am not afraid to pick out ten men of the Council here today, to whom I am not afraid of turning over the work in connection with the Church when I am away. Now as to the requirements of the Indians here today, and in the future. There are several things I wish to bring before your notice today as a Commission, and I would like you to bring them before the notice of the Dominion and Provincial Governments, as being necessary for the good of the Haidas. This year has been a hard year with our people. They were very successful as regards the Spring Salmon it is true, but the supply of the Humpbacks, Cohoes and Sockeyes was most unsatisfactory. The Indians scarcely made enough to pay their store bills, at the Cannery. Our Haidas in days gone by, never begged from the Government, nor from anyone else, but gentlemen, this year has been a hard one for them. They are most anxious to rebuild our Church here. I know they are. The Church has been up for over 30 years and it is all too small. The Indians are growing and it is overcrowded from a health point of view. They bring their children to the service, because I would not have them leave their children at home, and the result is that the Church is crowded Sunday after Sunday when the Indians are here, and it is too small to be sanitary. They want a paternal Government to give a donation to enable the Haidas to rebuild their Church. The women of Masset have set an example to everyone, the equal of which I don't think you will find anywhere in British Columbia, having by working at home, earned some $316 towards the re-building of their Church. I think that, in itself is an indication that they are not beggars but are trying to do what they can. There are just a few other things which I think are most necessary for this village. The nearest Doctor lives some 3 1/2 miles away from this village. All the year round accidents will happen, and cases of sudden illness arise, and it is not always possible to get the Doctor when he is wanted. He may be miles away attending some other case. If the Department could see its way to make the appointment of a qualified nurse who could instruct the Haida women in simple medical and surgical duties it would I am sure be the means of saving life in many cases. It would also be a great boon to the Indians of this tribe if a mechanical instructor could be appointed by the Government, who would instruct the Indians in the art of running gasoline engines, electricity, and other scientific trades. I venture to say that if this were done every man would be owning and running his own gasoline boat, and I think they would prove to be very skilful at other trades. I want to forestall accidents. If you want to have them a strong race as they were before, when they held these Islands and hurled back the wave of Asiatics from the Pacific Coast of America then you must support them today. Is there any reason, gentlemen, why men like Henry Edenshaw and Alfred Adams, should not have the franchise. They are able to build their own boats, and to do other good works. They are not children now (over) although they are treated by the Government as children.  Their position in the past, gentlemen, has been one of passive resistance to injustice.  We hope now, that justice will be done and that every man of them will receive 160 acres of land in his own right to hand down to his children in the days to come.  We insist upon the young people here who have nothingn to do during the winter.

 

6
If the Government can see their way to it, having a Central school erected on the Island, where both Skidegates and Massets can have technical education, or if not, that the Mission School at Metlakatla should be set in motion again. We have several men here today who are representatives of that school and examples of what that institution did under the guidance of an earnest and capable man - Mr. Scott - the government closed that School, for lack of funds. I think it is a disgrace that they should ever have done so. I would like to see an institution established at Tow Hill, and if the Government can't see their way to do that, then they should again set in operation the Metlakatla School. There is just one other thing before I close gentlemen, and that is that these Indians should not be deprived of getting timber for their own use, or for logging either. It is a shame and an anomaly that timber men can sit in their offices in Chicago and curtail all the woods from Naden Harbour to the Yakoun River. It is not fair or just it is not fair dealing. Gentlemen, we do not ask for anything for these Haida Indians but what is fair and just. That is all I have to say.
------------------------------
THE CHAIRMAN:- We wish to get some information with respect to these Reserves, who will testify?
CHIEF COUNCILLOR ALFRED ADAMS: - The Indian Agent knows the character of these reserves in full.
THOMAS DEASY, INDIAN AGENT FOR THE QUEEN CHARLOTTE ISLAND AGENCY, was sworn and examined by Mr. McGregor Young:-
Q.    You are the Indian Agent for the Queen Charlotte Agency? And are familar with the reserves and their character?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Have you seen them all?
A.    All but two.
Q.    You produce a plan here which is a Certified plan of the Reserves of the Agency. Take No. 1. It is shown as containing 729 acres, and the Indian Village is situated there, is that correct?
A.    Yes.
Q.    And the Indians have been concentrated upon that reserve from various other places where they lived, formerly?
A.    Yes, for many years.
Q.    Could you give us a general idea as to the number of houses in the village, 60 or 70?
A.    We have statistics here submitted to the Department, showing everything in connection with the houses.
Q.    And from those statistics you say that at the time they were prepared, there were how many houses?
A.    50 frame dwellings, 1 log, 10 shanties, 3 barns, 3 horse stables, 1 milk house, 1 church, 1 school, 1 parsonage, Agents office and Residence, school teacher's residence and adjoining barns.
Q.    Were these buildings all erected by the Indians themselves?
A.    Yes, to the best of my belief they were.
Q.    Are there any carpenters amongst the Masset people here?
A.    Quite a number.


7
Q.    Are there any other tradesmen amongst them?
A.    Some run gasoline boats, some are blacksmiths, some boat- builders, silver and goldsmiths, painters, etc. In fact a number of the young men have learned different occupations at the Industrial School. Most of the Indians here can turn their hands to almost anything.
Q.    Any shoemakers?
A.    No. I might say the majority are fishermen.
Q.    Do any of them keep stores in the village?
A.    Yes. There are four stores in the winter time, kept by Indians. Most of the stores are Co-operative stores.
THE CHAIRMAN:- What do you mean by Co-operative stores:
A.    The same as Co-operative stores amongst the whites.
MR. YOUNG: Well, do any other occupations occur to you?
A.    Of course, the men work in the Canneries, and also some of the women and children.
Q.    There is a Church of England Mission here and a day School, but no Boarding School?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What are the principal means of livelihood among the Indians here? Are they fishermen, trappers, hunters or boat-builders? How do they mainly get their subsistence?
A.    By fishing.
Q.    For the Canneries?
A.    For both the Canneries and themselves. They work for the Canneries during the summer months, and during the fall they put up consider- able quantities of fish for themselves.
Q.    Their money supplies they get principally from fishing for the Canneries?
A.    Yes principally.
Q.    Is there much trapping done?
A.    Not a great deal. The game on the Island has been pretty well killed off.
Q.    Is there any stock here?
A.    Yes, horses and cows.
Q.    How many, roughly speaking?
A.    Thirteen horses of which three are foals.
Q.    Do they breed horses here?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Have they their own Studs?
A.    They did have but I have not seen any lately.
Q.    Your return here shows 29 cattle in all?
A.    Yes.
- 7 -
 
8
Q.    Do they breed any cows and keep a bull?
A.    Yes. They have 2 steers, 20 milchcows and 7 young cattle.
Q.    Where do they get their pasturage from?
A.    On this reserve and on the adjacent Crown Lands.
Q.    Do they buy any hay,or use their own?
A.    They don't use much hay. The cattle run at large.
Q.    And the horses too?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Do they grow any grain?
A.    Very little.
Q.    I see they have no sheep or pigs?
A.    No. While we are speaking of their cattle I should like to say that the Indians have a strong complaint about their cattle being destroy- ed by white men who shoot them.
MR. MACDOWALL:- Is that a general practice of the white men here?
A.    WEll, it seems to be becoming so.
Q.    Who is it that shoots them?
A.    We don't know who it is. Two were found a few Sundays ago deliberately shot and left on the Reserve.
MR. SHAW: Are these cattle shot for the purpose of getting Beef? A.    I don't think so.
Q.    Well do they shoot them just for sport or from motives of malice?
A.    For "Sport" I think. They make believe they are shooting "Wild" cattle. A number of years ago, some cattle were brought here on a boat for Mr. Alexander. They had no way of landing them so they put them over- board, and allowed them to swim ashore. When Mr. Alexander went away there was no way of getting these cattle back on to the boat and so they were allowed to run wild and when a man shoots any cattle he claims that he is shooting these "wild" cattle. Henry Edenshaw had a bull shot and knows the man who shot it.
DR. McKENNA: There have been other cattle shot besides those you mention?
A.    Yes.
MR. SHAW: Are there any of these cattle of Mr. Alexander's still on the Island?
A.    I could not say but some people claim there are.
MR. YOUNG: If there were not that difficulty, would the Indians raise more cattle?
A.    Yes, I think they would have more.
Q.    What provision is there for feeding cattle?
A.    Just the grass on this reserve and on the surrounding crown Lands.
Q.    You stated that these cattle pastured on the Reserves and on the adjoining crown Lands outside the Reserve?
A.    Yes
- 8 -
 
9
Q.    Well, if the Indians were restricted to the Reserve land, for feeding their cattle, would they have enough food for them?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Did they have any more cattle before this shooting took place?
A.    I cannot say.
Q.    What do you say as to there being sufficient pasturage on this Reserve for the cattle which you think the Indians would keep if they had enough encouragement to do so?
A.    Well between the Crown Lands and the Reserve I think there would be enough pasturage.
THE CHAIRMAN: What number of cattle could be kept on this reserve in view of the pasturage they have here on this Reserve and on the Crown lands?
A.    I should judge they would be easily able to keep the number they have now.
Q.    Do I understand you to say that they could keep only 29 cattle and 13 horses on this Reserve?
A.     Yes. They could move their cattle on to other Reserves, but on this one Reserve I should judge they could easily raise from 30 to 40 head of cattle.
Q.    Well then that gives them the privilege of disposing of their cattle as they like.
A.    Yes.
DR. McKENNA: If all the adjoining Crown Lands were taken up by pre- emptors about how many head of cattle could they keep on this reserve alone?
A.    I should judge about 30 or 40 head of cattle.
THE CHAIRMAN: I suppose this adjacent pasturage has good timber on it. Is it good land?
A.    Yes, good feeding land.
Q.    Well if that timber was cut off, it would be quite good pasture land?
A.    Yes.
MR. YOUNG: Can you give us the population of the band here?
A.    354 according to the last statistics, with a possible addition of 11.
Q.    Could you give us the heads of families, that is all the males over 18 and all widow women, and all groups of orphans.
A.    The Departmental Statistics are all that I could give. I have a book in the office giving the ages of all the different Indians.
Q.    What has been the tendency during the last five years to increase or to decrease?
A.    With this band it has been about equal. The same number of births and deaths.
Q.    That is your observation, that they have about held their own? A.    Yes.
- 9 - 10
DR. McKENNA: How does this last census compare with that of the previous year?
A.    I think the last one is lower.
MR. YOUNG: What is the general condition of health here?
A.    Good, with the exception of some tubercolosis.
A.    Is that very prevalent here?
A.    Quite a number of them have died from Tubercolosis.
Q.    Are the Sanitary conditions good?
A.    Yes. Better than any Indians I have seen except the Skidegates, and I have seen the Indians pretty well all over the Province.
Q.    What are the present supplies of firewood and building timber on the Reserve?
A.    They have sufficient for the present but not for the future.
Q.    Why do you say that?
A.    Well 354 people use a good deal of timber.
DR. McKENNA: Well suppose they were confined strictly to the Reserve for all their supplies, what is your estimate of their future needs?
A.    They are practically confined to the reserves.
Q.    Yes, but suppose they stuck strictly to the law, and were confined absolutely to their reserves?
A.    Well they would have a long way to go to fetch timber if they were to go to some of their other reserves. I don't know how they would get it down here. Then again they might start a mill here as they have talked of doing.
MR. MACDOWALL: Well, just as things are now, how long do you think this timber would last them both for firewood and building purposes?
A.    Well, I have here in my statement that they have 1600 acres of wood land altogether.
MR. SHAW: Do you know about how much of that land has been depleted of timber during the last year?
A.    No, I don't.
Q.    Ten acres?
A.    No. I don't think so.
Q.    About how many months in the year do the Indians live here?
A.    Well this is their home village. They go to the Canneries and then they also go to North Island.
Q.    How long are they engaged in fishing at the Canneries?
A.    Two or three months.
Q.    And they go in the fall of the year catching fish for their own use. How many weeks are they away then?
A.    About two or three weeks. Then they also go berrying together.
- 10 -
 
11
Q.    Well then, they are about three or four months away from the Reserve?
A.    The majority of them are away about six months. DR. McKENNA: When do they leave here?
A.    About the end of April or beginning of May.
Q.    When do they return?
A.    That depends on circumstances.
MR. YOUNG: Are they here during the Winter months?
A.    Yes.
MR. SHAW: What do you call the Winter months?
A.    From November to April.
MR. YOUNG: Is it possible to bring firewood from these other reserves to this village?
A.    From some up the Inlet, but not those on the Coast, and then they would have to go back on some of those up the Inlet to log for it. n Indian always trys to get his wood along the shore line.
MR. SHAW: Could you give us any idea of the number of years these Indians have been living on this village?
A.    About 60 years I believe.
Q.    Could you give us any idea as to the percentage of wood which has been cut off this Reserve?
A.    I could not. An Indian is as careful as anyone. They would prefer going and making a long haul first and then coming near home later.
Q.    Do they bring their wood from outside the Reserve?
A.    Yes, from up the Inlet.
MR. YOUNG: - In your report, you put the value of the household effects of the tribe at $3,000.00.
A.    Yes and that is a low estimate.
Q.    How many gasoline boats have they here?
A.    I should judge they have about 6 gasoline boats.
Q.    Any sail boats of their own?
A.    Yes, a few and two schooners.
Q.    Take this No. 1 Reserve - Masset - 729 acres - What is the character of the land?
A.    Sandy.
Q.    What portion of it is timbered?
A.    I should judge not quite a quarter of it.
Q.    What sort of timber is it, heavy or light?
A.    Fairly heavy timber.
- 11 -
 
12
Q.    What is the character of the soil in the open land?
A.    Sandy.
Q.    What use do they make of it. Do they grow anything?
A.    Round their homes some of them grow vegetables and have a few gardens, and all the other parts they use for pasture.
Q.    Speaking of three fourths of the Reserve, is that good or poor soil for crops?
A.    I should judge that it is poor soil without fertilizing.
THE CHAIRMAN: What would it be like if it was fertilized?
A.    Well then it would be very good.
Q.    This grass about here is a natural growth is it not?
A.    Yes, it is a natural growth on top of old roots which have been there for years. I have a garden which has not been fertilized.I grow small plants and fruits but they don't do too well. The Indians use Seaweed, but it is not very good fertilizer.
DR. MCKENNA: Do you mean Kelp, when you say seaweed?
A.    Yes.
MR. YOUNG: Could grain crops be produced here on this particular reserve?
A.    I don't think so.
Q.    What are the climatic conditions for grain crops?
A.    I don't think they would be able to have it dry enough to cut wheat or oats or anything.
Q.    Do any of these Indians show any inclination to go into farming at all?
A.    Some of the older people have that inclination and so some raising of vegetables and other things. Some of them are getting right out now and planting potatoes.
Q.    Where?
A.    Well there is one man there who has cultivated a piece of land on an old settlement which is not on the reserve.
Q.    What is the quality of that timber land if the timber were removed?
A.    It is sandy land and gravelly.
THE CHAIRMAN: You have a little more than an average fall of rain here in this Island have you not?
A.    Well I have lived in Victoria and Vancouver and I have seen as much rain in Victoria as there is here.
MR. SHAW: - Do you know the precipitation of rain here?
A.    I do not. THE CHAIRMAN:- Did I understand you to say that there is no more rain here than in Victoria?
A.    No. I would compare it with Seattle or Vancouver. There is less
- 12 -
 
13
here than at Prince Rupert. Where they have snow and frost in Victoria and Vancouver, we have rain.
Q.    Well then if this property was cleared of timber, would it not be possible to raise a good crop of grass for pasturage?
A.    Yes. We have Clover grass here 6 or 8 inches or a foot high.
Q.: MR. YOUNG: What is the quality of the land at the No. 2 Reserve on the right bank of the Hi-Elen?
A.    That is one of the Reserve I have not been to.
Q.    What about Yagan (No. 3) 86 acres in extent, 12 miles east of Masset Inlet?
A.    There is some Halibut fishing done on No. 3. It is poor timber land.
Q.    What is the quality of the soil there?
A.    The same as on this Reserve. Poor and sandy.
Q.    Are there any houses on either No.2 or 3?
A.    I have not been on No. 2. There are three houses on No. 3.
THE CHAIRMAN: Are these houses on No. 3 occupied temporarily or permanently?
A.    Temporarily.
MR. YOUNG (No. 4 Lanas) On the right bank of the Yakoun River. Have you been on that Reserve?
A.    Yes. It is pretty much the same as No. 1, but things would grow better there. I saw a plum tree growing there. The soil would be better because there is more float from the river.
Q.    Is there timber on it?
A.    Yes, on the back part of it.
Q.    Any swamp?
A.    Yes, considerable swamp at the back.
Q.    A portion of it is overflowed by the River?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What use do they make of it?
A.    They go there and camp while carrying supplies to others. They also go fishing, trapping and hunting.
Q.    Any houses there for temporary use?
A.    Yes,several.
Q.    Does anyone live there permanently?
A.    Not now. They go there every year.
Q.    Is there any muskeg in it?
A.    Well. It is not very dry. It is a fair reserve though.
Q.    Now about No. 5, about 9 acres in extent also on the Yakoun River?
- 13 -
 
14
A.    That is a point of land butting into what is called the big lake. That is a lake about 10 miles wide and about 15 miles in length.
Q.    Is any use made of that reserve?
A.    It is just a camping ground.
Q.    Is there any fishing there?
A.    Not much if any.
Q.    Any houses?
A.    One house and a kind of stable.
Q.    Anything planted there?
A.    Not that I know of.
Q.    Any trapping done there?
A.    No.
Q.    No. 6, AIN, 164 acres at the mouth of the Ain River, have you been there?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What is the quality of the land?
A.    There is quite a lot of agricultural land there.
THE CHAIRMAN: Of what character?
A.    Fairly good.
MR. YOUNG: What is the soil like?
A.    It is a deposit brought in by the sea and the river.
Q.    It is not so sandy then?
A.    Not so sandy as this one.
Q.    Any gravel?
A.    I think so.
Q.    Is it timbered?
A.    There is some timber on both sides of the River.
Q.    What portion of it is timbered?
A.    I should think about 100 acres.
Q.    And is there as much as 100 acres of good arable land?
A.    Yes if cleared.
Q.    What use is made of this Reserve?
A.    It is a fishing ground.
Q.    Anything planted there?
A.    Some potatoes.
THE CHAIRMAN: These houses you speak of on these other reserves are only for temporary occupation?
- 14 -
 
15
A.    Yes. This is the Indians' only permanent home.
DR. MCKENNA: Do the people occupy the houses on the other reserves for a certain portion of each year?
A.    Yes.
MR. YOUNG: Do the same people go back to those reserves naturally? A.     Yes. The Indians are allowed to have a weir in the river Ain, which they are not allowed in other places, and they also have certain fishing rights on the Yakoun River.
Q.    No. 7 (Yan). You have been there?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Are there any houses there?
A.    A number.
Q.    Any graveyards?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Are there graveyards or graves on any other of these reserves?
A.    Yes, on this one.
Q.    Any on Nos. 2, 3 or 4?
A.    No. 2 I cannot speak of but generally they have them on each reserve. I have not seen any at Ain, nor at Set-un-quin on the Yakjun. Recently they have brought their dead to the cemetery here from everywhere.
Q.    What is there besides these houses and graveyards on 7?
A.    Some of them go there to do gardening.
Q.    Are any of them using that reserve for fishing?
A.    I don't think so, it is too near this place (Massett).
Q.    What use do they make of that reserve outside of gardening?
A.    Very little. The Indians in gardening or when gardening have always taken an open spot without clearing the land. For many years they have been putting in their crops there and leaving while they go fishing. Afterwards they would go and bring them in. Potatoes, turnips and carrots.
Q.    About how much of that reserve is fairly good agricultural land?
A.    A lot of it would be if cleared. It is pretty well all good land if cleared, but it would have to be drained.
Q.    Then there is a small reserve called "Meagewan" No. 8. What is the character of that?
A.    From what I could see of it it is rocky and there is some timber there - They have gardens but they are not on the reserve, they are close to the reserve, and they have usedthem for many years.
Q.    What use do they make of this No. 8 Reserve?
- 15 -
 
16
A.    They use it as a fishing station.
Q.    Do they trap there?
A.    No.
Q.    Have they any houses there for temporary use?
A.    Yes, they visit that place very often, because when fishing for halibut and cohoes they can go there for a night and stay.
Q.    Where do they get their halibut from to dry?
A.    Just outside here.
Q.    No. 9, Kose, a small reserve of 9 acres on the Naden River, what use do they make of that?
A.    When they go fishing some of the Indians go there.
Q.    Are there any houses there?
A.    I don't remember seeing any houses on that place.
Q.    Is there any planting done there?
A.    I have not seen any.
Q.    Is there any other use that they make of this reserve #9?
A.    None that I know of, but it is an old village of former tribes.
Q.    Are there any evidences of ancient occupation?
A.    None that I know of.
THE CHAIRMAN: What is the character of that reserve?
A.    I should judge that it is a fairly good piece of land timbered.
MR. YOUNG: No. 10 at the mouth of the Naden river, what use is made of that reserve?
A.    That is where they fish for their winter supplies.
A good many of the Indians go there especially while they are up at the Naden canneries.
Q.    Are there any houses there?
A.    A few.
Q.    Any planting?
A.    Not much.
Q.    What is the quality of the land?
A.    It is very swampy and some timber.
Q.    Is it heavy timber?
A.    No, not very heavy timber.
Q.    What do you mean by wet and swampy land?
A.    Well I think it is inundated by the tides.
 -16 -
 
17
A.    Part of it seems to be tidal land.
Q.    Of the 27 acres comprised in the reserve, how much, in your opinion would be arable land?
A.    May be 20 acres, perhaps only one-half of it if cleared and drained.
Q.    You think it would need to be drained?
A.    Yes, I should so judge.
Q.    (Referring to plan) What is the meaning of that #8 there?
A.    That is one I staked and Mr. Green surveyed it about a year and a half ago - It is not a Reserve.
Q.    Kung, No. 11 opposite the Wallace canneries, what is that like?
A.    Well, they reside there while at the cannery and at other times.
Q.    How many houses are there there?
A.    I should say about 10 or 15.
Q.    Any cultivation to any extent?
A.    Very little.
Q.    Is it used as a fishing station at all?
A.    Yes, some of them remain there for several months - It is quite residential place for them while at the canneries, but they don't live there permanently.
Q.    What is the character of that land?
A.    Fairly good, and some timber.
Q.    How much of it is suitable for cultivation?
A.    Well if the timber was taken off move than three parts of it.
Q.    How much of it is timbered?
A.    Almost the whole of it, with the exception of a small piece
Q.    Would it be easy or difficult to clear?
A.    I should judge it would be difficult.
Q.    For what reason?
A.    Well there is no water to float it down - there is just a small creek at one end.
Q.    No. 12 on the western shore of the Virago Sound, what about that?
A.    I have never been ashore there.
Q.    What use is made of it?
A.    It is a camping ground for the fishermen when they are fishing for salmon.
Q.    Are there any houses there?
A.    I understand so, but could not say so from personal knowledge.
- 17 -
 
18
Q.    Is it timbered?
A.    Yes. There is quite a lot of timber all down that coast.
Q.    No. 13, Yatze, 45 acres in extent, what use is made of that?
A.    Just the same as No. 12 - it is a temporary camping place for fishing or for going down to in the summer time. This is on the worst part of the coast and a man might go there and be stuck there for weeks at a time on account of the bad weather - It is an old fishing ground.
Q.    It is occupied at times in the way you described?
A.    Yes, for the purposes of fishing.
Q.    Are there any gardens there?
A.    I know of none.
Q.    Have you been on No. 14 - Jalun?
A.    No.
Q.    Can you say that the user is the same as in those places you have described?
A.    I cannot say.
Q.    No. 15, 101 acres in extent - Have you been there?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Are there any houses there?
A.    Yes, about 6 or 8.
Q.    Is that used as a fishing station?
A.    It is used for many purposes.
Q.    What are they?
A.    Some families live there in the summer time - It is used as a stopping place for people going    in and out through Parry Passage to the West Coast - It is a protected reserve from the weather, and therefore more of a stopping place more than anything else.
Q.    Is there any cultivation there, or any timber?
A.    Very little cultivation, but some timber.
Q.    Big timber or little?
A.    It is bush land - roots and some swamp.
Q.    What portion of the 101 acres is good land?
A.    May be more than three parts of it. It could be made good land if ploughed and cleared.
Q.    Would it be hard to clear?
A.    Not so difficult as some.
Q.    Would it require draining?
A.    Yes.
- 18 -
 
19
Q.    No. 15, Tatense, have you been there?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What do you say as to the character of that land?
A.    Well, I would not like to start growing anything there. It is a rocky place with a good deal of timber on it, and I should not say that it would be of any use for agricultural purposes.
Q.    Are any of these reserves used for trapping grounds or fur head- quarters for trapping?
A.    Not that I know of.
DR. McKENNA: I suppose there is not a great deal of trapping done here?
A.    No, there is some land otter and marten.
Q.    What prices do these furs bring?
A.    Well I understand that last year the land otter brought them in about $14 each and the marten $7. each.
Q.    Do they get any sea otter?
A.    Very few, but they get some black bear.
MR. YOUNG: There is no deer here?
A.    Only some that were put on the Islands recently by the Government and which are protected.
DR. MCKENNA: Was there ever a time when game was plentiful on this Island?
A.    I don't know - if it was it must have been before my time. Black bear, ducks and geese are plentiful in their season.
MR. YOUNG: The Department, at your suggestion, has made application for a number of additional reserves for this tribe. Is the first one, Sta-tin-skun?
A.    It is now called Sewell City.
Q.    Do you happen to know that that was on a Lot which was Crown Granted in the name of Marrie Rosie under date of August 1912?
A.    Well I understand so.
Q.    You staked that yourself for the Indians on the 24th April, 1911?
A.    Yes.
Q.    And did you otherwise comply with the provision of the Land Act?
A.    I carried out the instructions given to me by the Department - they instructed me to stake any land that was claimed by the Indians.
Q.    Well, you did put in stakes?
A.    Yes.
Q.    And this (Exhibit "D8") is a copy of the notice you put up?
A.    Yes.
Q.    You say that that place was subsequently Crown Granted to someone and that now Sewell City is on that site?
- 19 -
 
  20
A.    I understand so. That land was taken up for them because they claimed it was where they used to go to get their wood for building their boats and canoes, and also they used to go there hunting.
MR. SHAW: Was there any evidences there of former occupation?
A.    I did not see any.
Q.    Is any of the land in that vicinity taken up by pre-emptors?
A.    I think all the land in that vicinity is taken up.
MR. YOUNG: Owun, where is that?
A.    That is up at the head of Massett Inlet, near the Owun river.
Q.    My instructions from the Department are that this application is covered by Lots 1546 and 1547, which are, apparently, covered by perpetual timber licenses Nos. 8256 and 8257 in good standing.
A.    My understanding is that these Lots have been and are occupied by Indians.
Q.    What evidence of occupation did you see there?
A.    Two houses furnished, and a good garden, and other evidences of occupation for many years - There is an old house there which has been used there for many years.
Q.    Is there any clearing there?
A.    Yes.
MR. MACDOWALL: Did the houses appear to be in constant occupation?
A.    Well we met Indians coming and going to their work.
Q.    Were there indications that these houses had been used for many years?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Were many of the Indians there when this survey was made?
A.    Yes, we met some going away.
MR. YOUNG: Were there any enclosures or fences of any sort?
A.    Yes Sir, there were.
Q.    Is there a beach there?
A.    It is close on to the river. There are three houses there and I staked on both sides of the river - On the right hand of the river is where they are living.
Q.    Is this a correct description of the land which you have staked there? (Exhibit "D" 9).
A.    Yes.
MR. SHAW: How many acres are there which you staked?
A.    50 on each side of the river.
Q.MR. YOUNG: Were there any evidences of occupation on the left hallo side of the river?
A.    None that I saw.
- 20 -
 
21
Q.    Is the whole of it timbered with the exception of that piece of clearing?
A.    Yes, it is pretty well timbered on the western side of the river
Q.    Did you stake that one on the 25th of April, 1911?
A.    Yes.
Q.    You have handed me a copy of the Notice you put up at Owun river?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Mammin river, my instructions are that the application in respect to this place is apparently covered by Lot 1626, which is covered by Timber Licence No. 37108.    It is at the mouth of the Juskatla river?
A.    Yes.
Q.    You are applying for 100 acres there?
A.    Yes.
Q.    You staked 50 on each side of the river?
A.    Yes. I was also with Mr. Green when he surveyed it.
Q.    And you put up a Notice the same as in the other cases?
A.    Yes.
Q.    And notified the Department also?
A.    Yes, I notified Mr. McMullen, the Lands Commissioner at Prince Rupert.
Q.    And got an acknowledgement in each case?
A.    Not in each case. He sometimes used to acknowledge a batch at a time.
Q.    What evidences of previous occupation were there at Mammin?
A.     Two old houses - also a Chief who lived there for many years, and it belonged to their people many years ago - The Indians who were with me told me that it is an old Indian settlement.
Q.    Any enclosures or gardens, or cultivation or clearing?
A.    No, it would be more as a fishing station.
MR. SHAW: Were there any evidences of recent occupation?
A.    No. Not recent occupation, but I know they go there shooting and fishing - They shoot geese and fish for salmon.
MR. YOUNG: Do any of them use it at the present time?
A.    I believe they go there but have not seen any.
Q.    Would it be correct to say that they return there the same way as they do to other places, for the fishing year by year?
A.    Yes, I should judge so, but would not say so positively.
Q.    Have you got the description and staking notice of this one?
A.    Yes, sir.
- 21 -
 
22
Q.     No. 4 on my list, and No. 5 on the Map, Cub island, covered by an application in the name of James Watt, but not yet Crown Granted. Did you follow the same procedure in that case?
A.q     Yes.
Q.    And that was staked on the 24th of April, 1911?
A.    Yes,
Q.    Did you find any houses or other evidence of occupation there?
A.    There is a house there.
Q.    Any furniture?
A.    I was not in it.
Q.    In what condition of repair was the house?
A.    Fair.
Q.    It could be used?
A.    Yes, and is used by one of the Indians who goes there at times to attend to his garden.
Q.    You say there is a garden there, did it look as if there had been any gardening done the previous year?
A.    Yes, a little but not a great deal.
Q.    Any planting of fruit trees or other things of that description?
A.    No.
Q.    Any enclosures or fenced places?
A.    I did not see any. Nobody else occupied the land that I know of.
Q.    Ship Island, where is that?
A.    It is nearly opposite Sta-tin-Skun.    It is 10 acres in extent.
Q.    Staked the same day and the same procedure followed?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Was that formerly used by the Massett people?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Is there a house there?
A.    I could not be positive - I believe there was a garden there.
Q.    I am informed that this is apparently covered by Lot 990 which was Crown Granted to Henry St. Montiambert. You put in a copy of the Notice and the description of it?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Did a copy of this description in all cases accompany your application?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Nadu river, where is that?
A.    Just up the Inlet a short distance. I have something to say
- 22 -
 
23
about this one. The Nadu river is the river which runs into Massett Inlet.
Q.     How many acres did you stake there?
A.     Seven and three quarters.
Q.     Did you stake on both sides of the river?
A.     I am not sure but Mr. Green surveyed what I staked.
Q.     Did you stake that the same day?
A.    Yes.
Q.    And this is a copy of the Notice you put up on the property. And this is a copy of the description which went in with the application?
A.     Yes.
Q.     You say that Mr. Green made a survey of all that?
A.     Yes.
Q.     Did you find any evidences of occupation there?
A.     Yes, and Indian house on the Point, and a whiteman's house below the point - that would be on the West side of the river.
Q.     Was the whiteman's house on the 7 3/4 acres which you staked?
A.     Yes, I believe so. He was an American citizen named O.P. Merrill. He has left the place and the house. A man named Johnson has been granted 40 acres at the mouth of that river in lieu of a piece of land which he had and was subsequently found to be on a timber limit. That is the information I have but it is only heresay.
Q.     The Department informs me that this is apparently covered with a 5 year coal lease in the name of O.P. Merrill.
A.     I understand he has given up his interest in the coal lease and gone away - The house on the Point has been used by Tommie Hut comb [Holcomb?]
Q.     What use do the Indians make of this place?
A.     Fishing and residing there.
Q.     What use do they make of all the places covered by the applications?
A.     Well, they want them for fishing and residing there from time to time. Mr. Merrill recognized the justice of Tommie Nutcomb's [Holcomb’s?] claim, and so vacated.
MR. MACDOWALL: Who was that instructed you to stake these lands for the Indians?
A.     The Department of Indian Affairs.
MR. YOUNG: Did Nutcomb [Holcomb?] have a garden?
A.     No, I saw no evidence of a garden, but there were two houses there and a fishing camp.
Q.     And the continual user of the camp by Hutcomb? [Holcomb?]
A. Yes.
- 23 -
 
24
Q.    There is another one of the same nature at Stanley Cree$ Naden Harbour apparently covered by Timber Licence No. 2517 in good standing - Did you stake that on the same day?
A.    I staked that when I was with Mr. Green - I don't know exactly the day.
Q.    Was that early in the year 1911?
A.    Mr. Green was here in 1912. I might say that these are the places which the Indians marked for me as wishing to have - There are quite a number of other places than those I staked.     NOTE: The geological map of Graham Island was put in, (Exhibit "D"         14).
Q.    This (Exhibit "D" 15) is a copy of the Notice which you put up on the property?
A.    Yes.
Q.    How many acres did you stake?
A.    25 acres.
Q.    What did you see there in the way of evidence of occupation by Indians?
A.    I did not see anything?
Q.    What use had been made by the Indians of that property?
A.    It is a fishing ground at the mouth of the Creek.
Q.    Is that place used by them every year?
A.    They say so.
Q.    What fish do they get there?
A.    Salmon.
Q.    Susk, apparently covered by unexpired coal licences Nos. 7965 and 7992. What have you to say about that?
A.    The Indians have no reserves on the west coast of this Island, although they had hunting and fishing and camping grounds all over the West Coast at one time - Their old hunting camps are there but they were never reserves, and therefore I went down and staked this place at the same time but Mr. Green did not survey it - he had no time to go there just then.
Q.    Did you locate it for the purpose of communicating with the Dep't?
A.    Yes, it is on the West Coast of Graham Island.
DR. MCKENNA: Is the river one of the boundaries of the place you located?
A.    No.
Q.    Why did you stake it?
A.    For the reason I have given.
Q.    How many acres did you stake?
A.    100 acres.
MR. YOUNG: And this is a description of the place you staked which I am now putting in?
- 24 -
 
25
A.    Yes.
Q.    You say in the description "Susk Village", why do you say that?
A.    Because it was so called by the Indians.
Q.    Did you see any houses there?
A.    One house.
Q.    Is this one of the old villages from which the various Indians of the Haida nation came into Massett?
A.    Yes. There are two trails from West river to Susk village.
Q.    What is the quality of the land there?
A.    It is all timbered except a small piece of clearing in front.
Q.    Is there any rock?
A.    Some rock nearby - It is a sandy beach.
Q.    Is their harbourage there?
A.    Not very much - Here is the notice which I sent to the Dep't. about it at the time (Exhibit "D" 17).
Q.    The next is an application covering Tiahn on the west coast of Graham Island - Have you got a description of that?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Did you put up the usual Notice there?
A.    No, I sent it down by an Indian. I was there and when I found out what it was I sent the Indian down with the Notice. I have not been back since then. It is away back where the Oilfields are. I sent the application to the Government because the houses were there. The Dead bodies of Indians are in the trees all along there. The Indians state that they do not want to interfere in any way with the Oil plant, but they want a place down there where they can go hunting. It is the best hunting place on the Island. The Oil Company was occupying an old Indian house there which they eventually bought from the Indians, paying them the sum of Twenty-five dollars for it.
Q.    Where there any other houses there?
A.    There was one other but that is gone now. However, there were evidences that there had been quite a vilaage there.
Q.    SAQUCHTON on the Western shore of Massett Inlet ou staked that?
A.    Yes.
Q.    And made an application to the Lands Commissioner for it?
A.    Yes, and the Indian residents staked it too.
Q.    Is this the property claimed by the Weah Family?
A.    Yes.
Q.    And Chief Weah claims it belongs to him?
A.    Not personally. This place was surveyed by Mr. Green. It has been taken up by several parties from time to time, but for some reason or other the Government would never give any "Title" to it.
- 25 -
 
26
A.    The man died who took it up, and not very long ago, Mr. Harrison went and staked it. I saw the notice in one of the Queen Charlotte papers stating that he intended to apply to purchase it and on seeing that notice I again put in an application on behalf of the Indians.
Q.    Is there any cultivation there?
A.    Yes, not much - There is some grass, potatoes and other vegetables.
Q.    Was it under cultivation when you applied for it?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Are there any houses there?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Any clearing being done? outside of the cultivated land?
A.    Yes, very little.
Q.    I find on file a blue-print and sketch of Sa- cht-kon (Official file No. 403707) and a letter from Mr. Ashdowne Green, in which he says:-
        "This plot is on the site of an old Indian village, which is claimed by the old Masset Chief, "WEAH", whose three totems stand on it. On         the spot where the house stood. "Weah" has at some time planted potatoes, and perhaps half an acre might be used for gardens" Is that correct?
A.    Yes.    
Q.    You say that that is now open. That it is not Crown Granted?
A.    Not that I know of.
Q.    I am instructed that that is apparently covered by Lot 174, which was reserved from alienation, under date of July 4th, 1912. Now if that lot is available for an additional Reserve, will you tell the Commission what reason you have for asking for it?
A.    Because it is an old Indian settlement. Several of the Indians here have their gardens there. There are evidences of old houses and the Indians claim that there are bodies buried there.
Q.    What would they use it for if they got it? A.    They could do some hunting and fishing there. I might put in some evidence in connection with this.
Q.    Can you say that this application of Mr. Harrison's for pre-emption has been finally disposed of?
A.    I have not heard so. If there is any piece of land which the Indians ought certainly to have, that piece in my opinion, is the place. It is good ground, and there is every evidence of previous occupation.
DR. MCKENNA: And it has been cultivated by them every year during your term of office?
A.    Yes.
MR. YOUNG: The last application is for four localities on North Island. Did you stake them?
A.    Yes.
- 26 -
 
27
Q.    And they aggregate 200 acres?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Three of them are reported here as being vacant and the fourth as being covered by a Coal licence?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Can you identify them by anything that you have there?
A.    No, I cannot, but they are used by every working member of the Band, during the fishing season.
Q.    Have they any scheduled reserves on North Island?
A.    One away down in Parry Passage. That is where they went for their Spring Salmon for years and years. Mr. Doughty (B.C. Fisheries Co.) sent someone to stake that last year,but I protested and Mr. Doughty relinquished his claim.
Q.    What do you say as to their value as fishing grounds?
A.    It is the best, and I would almost say the only place the Indians have for Spring Salmon.
MR. McKENNA: Do they use the seines there?
A.    No.
MR. YOUNG: You want me to put in these copies of applications made by you, covering Tiahn and Susk. Are the statements of fact set out in those documents, by you, correct?
A.    Yes. (Exhibit D 19).
Q.    And this is a copy of a letter from Mr. Doughty to you in which he states he withdraws his application.
A.    Yes. (Exhibit D 20).
Q.    Have we any evidence before the Commission today which would enable you to locate these four applications on North Island?
A.    I may have in my office.
Q: THE CHAIRMAN: Before we commenced considering these applications, Did I understand you to say that the principal mode of earning their living, by these Indians, was fishing?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Do they or do they not, do a prosperous business?
NO ANSWER.
Q.    They have good surroundings, and most of them appear to be healthy and well fed, and to do a prosperous business?
A.    Yes.
Q.    If they got these additional reserves which have been applied for would they adequately furnished with fishing stations for their purposes?
A.    In my opinion they would. They have Fishing stations on the Yakoun and Naden rivers, and with North Island, Mamin and the other places which I staked, they should have enough. There is a small place nearly opposite here which they are using, and if they do not have that taken from them, they should be alright. I should say that
- 27 -
 
28
with those they would have all the fishing stations they require, with the exception of one small place at the mouth of the Tiga (Saughin) River.
MR. SHAW: Is that on the east coast of the Island?
A.    Yes.
INDIAN AGENT DEASY: I would like to say, that although the Indians have had these Reserves allotted to them, there are some Gentlemen, who have been "Good" enough, to hand letters to certain of the Indians here, similar to one which was handed to James Cote and William Hardy. Some of these letters were given them for nothing, but on the other hand they have had to pay for some. I have a letter here which was written since I took office, and I object to anyone misleading the Indians in this way. Magistrate Harrison has given some of the documents out, and there is one here signed by J.H. oon
PR. MCKENNA: Do I understand you to say that Magistrate Harrison was paid for these documents?
A.    Well, I did not see any money change hands, but the Indians informed me that they have paid as much as $2.00 each for these documents. Some of these documents are sealed with an official seal and written on Provincial Government paper.
THE CHAIRMAN: You made these copies yourself?
A.    Yes. I copied these from letters written by Mr. Harrison.
THE INDIAN AGENT, next went on to say:
"The Masset Indian Reserve is not all owned by the Massett Indians. About 12 acres are owned by the Church people and 9 acres by the Hudson's Bay Company. We are on the Church property now. Mr. Harrison took it up when he was a Missionary here, and he managed to dispose of it in some way to the Church people.
THE CHAIRMAN: Will you please let us take up one matter at a time, Mr. Deasy. We have not yet got through with what we were discussing concerning these letters given to Indians by Mr. Harrison. One thing at a time, please.
BENJAMIN KWAIWANS was then sworn and examined- By the Chairman:
Q.    Do you know this paper?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Who did you get it from?
A.    From Mr. Harrison.
Q.    How did you come to get it?
A.    I asked Mr. Harrison about this land, and told him I wanted to secure it for a hunting ground. Mr. Harrison wrote this paper for me and gave me to understand that the land belonged to me when I got the paper. I paid Mr. Harrison $2.50 for the paper. Mr. Todd, the Indian Agent, when he saw the paper, told me it was only a "title" to my hunting grounds. Q.    Will you part with this paper so that we can take it away with us?
A.    Yes. I have no objection.
Q. DR. McKENNA: Mr. Todd told you it was a title to your hunting grounds?
A.    Yes.
- 28 -
 
29
WITNESS: After you get through with that paper will you let me have it back? The paper was handed back, after it (along with several others) had been examined, and particulars taken from them. The papers examined were made out to the undermentioned:
ROBERT BENNETT, October 5th, 1900, stamped with the date stamp of the Customs Dept. of Canada, Masset Inlet, Q.C.I.
EDWARD TH0MSON, February 6th, 1900, stamped with the date stamp of Customs Dept. of Canada, Masset Inlet,    Q.C.I.
JOSHUAH WEAH, February 6th, 1900, written on the Official Paper of the Government of the Province of British Columbia, and Harrison's fiat in this case is:
"THIS CERTIFIES that Joshuah Weah is the guardian of CHARLES THOMPSON, and until the boy arrives at proper age, the said Joshuah Weah,will act as the Headman of Tatlaman and Kuadis [?] hunting grounds and fishing streams, according to the old-time hunting rights amongst the Haidas.
Signed on behalf of C. Todd, Esqr,
Indian Agent, etc.
By C. HARRISON,
S.H."
-----------------------
"I Have this the sixth day of February 1900, heard the statements of several parties interested in Tatl man and Kuadis [?] hunting grounds and fishing streams, and according to the old-time hunting rights amongst the Haidas, my decision is that Joshuah Weah, as guardian of Charles Thompson, act as the Headman of these two places until the boy arrives at the proper age to take charge of them himself.
GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL
C. HARRISON.
Seal    S.H."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another document of the same date, directs that according to the old-time Indian Customs, the above mentioned River (Yagman River [?]) be divided into 3 parts, under the following Headmen, JOSHUAH WEAH, THOMAS NATKOWN [?]     AND EDWARD THOMPSON.

There were also other documents of a similar character signed and sealed by Harrison, on Official paper, one made out in the name of William Hardy is forwarded to the Department. The other documents were handed back to the Indians as The Commission did not wish to deprive them of these documents. The Indians however promised to produce the original documents if ever they were called upon to do so. There is also reference made to a document of a similar character to those mentioned,above the first portion of which is signed by J.H. Keen, by order of the Indian Council.

- 29 -
 
30

The Indian Agent stated that these are matters which have caused a great deal of trouble, as they have led the Indians to believe that they have certain rights in the Country, which they have not got.
-----------------------

THOMAS DEASY:- Indian Agent, recalled, was examined by Mr. Young: Q.  I am putting in Blue-prints produced by you from your files, concerning certain of the lands comprised in the applications which have been made for additional reserves. Is Kingara the same as North Island?
A.    Yes. The name has been changed by the Dominion Government. THE CHAIRMAN:- Referring to your remarks just now about the Indians not owning the whole of this Reserve. Do the Indians object to the Church having this land?
A.    They object to the land being taken up right in the middle of their reserve. They cannot understand how it is that this land in the centre of the Reserve is not Indian, or Dominion Government land. The Church and the Hudson's Bay Company have the respective titles to 12 and 9 acres which I mentioned before. The Indians don't understand by what right the Church people and the Hudson's Bay Company have got these titles.
Q.    Don't they want the Church here then?
A.    They want the Church alright, but the Church Land runs right through the centre of the Reserve, and through one corner of an Indians house. Although the Indians are on their own Reserve, they are,at the same time on Church land.
Q.    How did the Indians come to put up their houses there?
A.    Well they thought they were building on their own Reserve.
Dr. McKENNA: They don't understand how the Church people got the title to the land without their consent?
A.    Yes. That is just it.
Q.    Do you know who gave the Church people their title?
A.    It was the Provincial Government, I think.
Q.    Who gave the Hudson's Bay people their title?
A.    I don't know. What the Indians object to is the Church and the Hudson's Bay Company's land being in the centre of the reserve. The Hudson's Bay Company offered to sell this land (9 acres) to the Indians for $1500.00.
THE CHAIRMAN:- The Indians don't want the Church to have so much land Is that it?
A.    What they cannot understand is, that such two parcels of land in the centre of the reserve, should be owned outside of the Indians or the Dominion Government.
DR. McKENNA: How long ago is it since the Hudson's Bay Company land was occupied by the Hudson's Bay Company?
A.    About 15 years.
Q.    How many acres have the Hudson's Bay Company got, and how many have the Church got?
A.    The Hudson's Bay people have 9 acres and the Church people have 12

- 30 -
 
31
Q.    Well according to the Map, the Church have only about a quarter as much as the Hudson's Bay Company.
A.    I know that the Church have 12 acres and Hudson's Bay Company 9.
---------------------------------------------------------------
HENRY EDENSHAW was sworn and examined by the Chairman:
Q.    Do you know that reserve, No. 2?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What is the character of that Reserve, is it fit for cultivation?
A.    There is more sand than anything else there. The soil is not very good there.
Q.    Would it be ordinarily fit for cultivation?
A.    Back in the woods would be better than down by the Beach which is all sand.
Q.    Is the Back part of that reserve fairly good?
A.    Yes. Fairly good under the timber.
Q.    Well now, No. 8, Magwan, what is the character of that?
A.     That is only used for a fishing ground. There is a little good soil there. There is very little gardening done there as it is mostly rock.
Q.    The next is No. 12 at the mouth of the Virago Sound. What is that like?
A.    It is only just a small place there which they can use for gardening, all the rest is rocky.
Q.    No. 13, YATSE, what about that?
A.    That is good gardening ground we have most of our Gardens there.
Q.    What about No. 14, JALUN?
A.    It is more rocky than anything else. There is good timber there but I have never seen any cultivation.
Q.    Well, most of these places I have named to you are small reserves mainly used for fishing grounds?
A.    Yes.
MR. SHAW: Are there houses on all these Reserves?
A.    All except Jalun.
THE CHAIRMAN: (Addressing the meeting) In so far as these applicatiions for additional reserves, and other matters which have been brought to our notice today, are concerned, the Commission will have them every consideration and make such representations as they consider the circumstances justify. In respect to the documents given out by Mr. Harrison are concerned, we will bring that matter also under the notice of the Government, and make such recommendations as we may see fit. In respect to the land belonging to the Church of England and the Hudson's Bay Company Qoth these bodies appear to have a title to the land, and we will bring that matter to the notice of both the Dominion and Provincial Governments, and no doubt you will hear something
- 31 -
 
32
about it later on.
CHIEF COUNCILLOR ALFRED ADAMS: We have been asking the Government to assist us in securing a good water supply, which is very necessary and also our wood supply is very short. We would also like a Boarding School and a Hospital established at Massett for the Indians.
THE CHAIRMAN: Any representations which you have to make on these matters could be put in writing and given to Mr. Deasy to forward to us at Victoria, and we could then forward your requests on to the Government at Ottawa.
The meeting then terminated.



























- 32 -
 
 
ROYAL COMMISSION ON INDIAN AFFAIRS FOR THE PROVINCE OF B. C.
SKIDEGATE, B. C. Septr. 13th, 1913.
 
A meeting with the Indians of the Skidegate Tribe of the Haida Indians was held in the School-House, Skidegate, B.C. On the 13th September 1913.
HENRY GREEN was sworn as interpreter, and on behalf of the Skidegate Indians, he read an address to the Commission (Exhibit D23).
THE CHAIRMAN, in reply to the address, said:-
"The Commission is very much obliged to you for this address. It gives us great pleasure to visit this village as well as to have had the opportunity of visiting the village of the members of your tribe residing on the Northern part of the Island. It is with pleasure we notice the progress you have made both here and at the other village to which I have referred, but it is no more than what was to be expected from the descendants of the people and ancesters from which you have descended. We are especially pleased with the appearance of your village. We have found wherever we went, a very much improved and advanced condition of things where there has been a resident missionary of the Christian faith among the Indians. You have expressed a great desire to advance, and have introduced among you the customs and ideas of the white men. That simply means a desire to advance in civilization. I think you have taken the best means of advancing in civilization, when you have had at your doors a Church belonging to some Christian denomination. Perhaps the very best means of bringing about true civilization has been the Christian religion. Christianity and Western Civilization have always gone hand in hand. Now the best way to follow that up is by individual effort that is, by the effort of each man in the tribe. Another great aid to civilization is Commercial enterprise, and that again is never going to be got by lying down on your back and expecting the plums to fall into your mouth. There never has been a white nation yet which has got ahead in that way. They have got there by working hard. Each man working for himself and his own ends. If you have claims against the Government or anyone else it is fair and right that you should have an opportunity of putting them forward and nobody objects to you putting them forward. No objection can be taken, so far as I have seen to the way in which you put forward any claims which you have had. I hardly know how to express what I mean because I can hardly get a word that you will understand, which will express it. What I wish to say - and I think those who understand English, will understand me - is that your endeavour to rise to a higher plane must largely depend upon individual effort. If you want to reach out, reach out independent of the Government if you can. I know that at present you must from time to time receive some aid from the Government. I am only going to mention one thing, contained in that address, and that is with respect to the question of what is called "INDIAN TITLE". All we can say with respect to that is, that it is not within our powers to deal with and we have therefore nothing whatever to do with it. I want to congratulate you upon what seems to be under the circumstances, the prosperous conditions in which you are living. We all hope, whatever your claims may be, if they are right claims, that justice will be done to you. We are much obliged to you for your wish expressed here, that we should enjoy a pleasant time in your village here, which we expect to have and to which your very excellent band of music and the other members of your tribe will contribute. If you have any statements to make we will be glad to hear them.
- 33 -  
 
2
At this point, a further address was handed in and read by Henry Green (EXHIBIT D24)
In reply to which the Chairman stated:
"There are some matters in this address which are not in the other address. There is a good deal which is not in the other address at all. There are some matters here upon which we can make suggestions to the Government, that is, it would be within our authority to do so, and we will take these matters into our consideration and make such recommendations as we think the circumstances justify". AMOS RUSS, A member of the Skidegate Indian Council, said:- We are glad that you people from Ottawa and the other law makers are here, and we are here to put before you our troubles. The troubles which up have experienced during past years. As far back as ever we can remember, without any doubt at all, the Queen harlotte Islands practically belong to the Indians. It came about after a little while that the Islands were called the Queen Charlotte Islands, but we don't know who gave them that name. As far as we can remember we can claim that the Islands fairly belong to us and as far back as we can remember there was never any treaty with respect to this land, between the Government and the Indians. We have never had a fight for the Islands. No nation ever came and fought us for them and won them from us. We don't know why the Government took them from us. If we had had a Treaty with the Government we would not claim the Islands. When the first Missionaries arrived here, the three principal points they taught us, were these. Don't take things that belong to others. They taught us "Love one another" and don't kill anybody. These are the three points they taught us. These things they taught us out of the bible. We are glad that we kept the teachings of the missionaries who taught us these things, and as years have past on and on we have seen and know, that the Government has come in and sold our lands. What can we do? We have kept the teachings of the missionaries "Don't do any harm to others", "Love one another", and we are keeping these teachings yet. This will tell you that we have a good feeling and not hard feelings against anyone. We laid our case in the hands of the lawyers and the Privy Council of England is taking up the Case, which I don't doubt that you people know. We are glad that we can say that we have seen people come in and take up land among us and we have never had any trouble the same as the white people have. For instance, the Boers and the English fought over their land troubles. We have not fought because we have kept what the missionaries taught us, and what is more it doesn't look manly to fight. Up at the North end of the Island, there used to be villages and villages, right from North Island to the present village of Masset, these villages stood side by side, but at the present there is only one village there, namely Masset. North Island was so named by the Indians, and now the Government have called it Langara. I can say that myself, if I took a piece of land and claimed it without any title to it, I would naturally call it another name and that is the case with North Island. At this end of the Island as far down as the Island extends, there were villages and villages side by side right to the furthest point and at the present time there is only one village and that is Skidegate. We see day by day that the Government is selling land far down this coast and also down the west coast of the Island. We know for a fact that the Government is selling this land and yet we can say that the Queen Charlotte Islands are ours. You can see right around the Island there are villages and villages and you can see our Totem poles which are the same to us as the whitemens' pre-emption stakes are to them.        
- 34 -  
 
3
I cannot take a step further in the question until we hear what lawyer Clark has to say to us. We cannot put any trouble before you people but we will hear and know later what to do. We congratulate you gentlemen that you have taken the time and the trouble to visit our villages, for which we thank you gentlemen very much. I cannot call myself a gentlemen before others, but this I know and claim, that I am a Christian Gentlemen. That is all I have to say.
THE CHAIRMAN: (to the Interpreter) Is he speaking on behalf of all the Indians here?
THE INTERPRETER (after consulting with Amos Russ) Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN: Then I understand that these Indians decline to make any other statement as to their grievances, before this Commission? (To the Interpreter) Ask him if he has the authority of all the Indians here, when he says:- "We cannot take a step further in the question until we hear what Lawyer Clark has to say".The Interpreter then put this question to Amos Russ, who replied: It is some 50 years ago since the surveyor came to lay out the Indian Reserves. He stated that the Indian reserves were ours and no man could touch them. At the present day, we came to find out that the Government has practically located us here temporarily. Therefore we laid our claims before lawyer Clark and left the matter in his hands, and he will take it before the Privy Council in England.
THE CHAIRMAN (To the Interpreter) But I want to know if he was speaking on behalf of all the Indians present just now, or only in his behalf.
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he is speaking on behalf of all the Skidegate people.
THE CHAIRMAN:- I understood the Councillor to say, that the Privy Council were about to take action in this matter of the "Indian Title" to the land?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN:- Does he mean by that the Court of the Privy Council is taking action?
THE INTERPRETER:- That is the understanding we got through the mail from Mr. Tate.
THE CHAIRMAN; For more than 60 years I have been a lawyer and I have been very familiar with the means of bringing cases before the Court of the Privy Council, and I know what state a matter must be in before it can go before the Privy Council. I am very much surprised to hear that you have had any advice of that sort, because I know that there is nothing in the case, which is in a position to go before the Privy Council yet. There is nothing in that stage, which could get it before the Privy Council at all so you must have been misinformed in some way or other. That is none of my business, I am only telling you this for your information. Somebody is misleading you or you have misunderstood something.
THE CHAIRMAN (To Interpreter) Tell them there is no necessity for taking further statements in view of what Councillor Russ has stated. Now if any of you wish to give testimony with respectto the character of your reserves, as to whether they are fit for cultivation or gardening of any sort, or as to any cattle or
- 35 -
 
4
or stock you may possess, or any sheep or pigs, the number of boats you own, launches or otherwise, how the different reserves laid off for you are used by you., or other matters of a similar nature. We will hear what testimony you wish to give. Of course I think it is right that you should understand that we will get this information somewhere else if you don't care to give it yourselves.
COUNCILLOR JAMES STERLING:- I know for what purpose you have come to this village. It will never do to go about it in a rough way, and talk it over in any sort of a way, as it is a very important thing, and it will haveto be done right, and before our people I would like to ask you this question, "How many of you gentlemen are here to represent the Government"?
THE CHAIRMAN:- There are five gentlemen on this Commission. This Commission is issued by the Dominion Government under the Great Seal of Canada, and signed by the Acting Governor-General That Commission appoints us five gentlemen to act. Dr. McKenna & Mr. White have been appointed by the Dominion Government and Mr. Shaw and Mr. Macdowall have been appointed by the Provincial Government, and these four gentlemen have elected me as Chairman.
COUNCILLOR JAMES STERLING:- I know that the Dominion Government are on the look-out to see that no-one interferes with the Indians. I know for a fact that the Provincial Government at the present time is practically working right against the Indians. If it had not been for the late Queen who had supported and looked after our interests through the Dominion Government, we would now have been in even greater trouble. We are somewhat nervous. We feel just as though we cannot say what we want to say, because we do not know who is to represent the Indians,of the five who are present at the meeting, and we have got this idea that the two Governments, Provincial and Dominion are fighting over our lands, and therefore we are afraid to put the question before these gentlemen. I know what the Indian Reserves are alright, but although they are reserves set aside for the use of the Indians we are not allowed to do as we like in our own reserves. We have been somewhat cramped and crushed up and we cannot move round as we want to. You gentlemen have asked us not to say anything about the Privy Council or Lawyer Clark. THE CHAIRMAN: I simply said that you had either been mislead or that there had been some misunderstanding about the matter.
COUNCILLOR JAMES STERLING:- I would like to ask you gentlemen a question, and I must have an answer to it. I want to know above all things who the Queen Charlotte Islands and these reserves belong to?
THE CHAIRMAN:- As to the Ownership of the Queen Charlotte Islands, the Indians claim to own the whole of the Islands. The Dominion Government and the British Columbia Government claim that both or one of them own the Indian reserves on these Islands, and the British Columbia Government claims to own the whole of the lands on the Queen Charlotte Islands outside of the reserves, except those places which they have granted to private individuals. The Dominion Government don't claim any of the land on the Islands outside of the Indian Reserves, but the Indian reserves they claim for the Indians.
COUNCILLOR JAMES STERLING:- I would like to ask one more question. The Dominion Government and the B.C. Government between them, They own these Islands? I would like to ask this question.
  - 36 -  
 
5
Why and in which way did they both get the Islands. If you could give us evidence of who they got the Islands, before all these people we would be contented.
THE CHAIRMAN: - That is just the question which you want the Privy Council to decide. I won't give an opinion in that respect. Let the Privy Council do it. I have had enough cases taken from my judgement to the Privy Council without having another one.
JAMES STERLING:  I know the time when Judge O'Reilly came to the Islands to stake the Reserves. I think it was in 1883 thatthe Reserve was laid out. Our fathers fully depended that there would be no trouble after the Reserves had been laid out. I thought it was already settled at the time when Judge O'Reilly staked the reserves out, and I don't fully understand why you Commissioners are around here to look up cases of this kind, to see what is the trouble.
THE CHAIRMAN:    It would seem to be running through your mind that we have come here with the intention of depriving you of some of your reserves or of some portions of them. We have to a certain extent, considered the situation here and know pretty well what the character of the land is, and the nature of the reserves. We got sufficient information through sworn testimony to come to a certain conclusion with respect to that. I am authorized to state that the Commissioners have no intention whatever of cutting off any reserve or portion of any reserve belonging to the Haida Tribes on the Island. We have come to the conclusion that you have no more land belonging to either band - Masset or Skidegate - than you reasonably require, and we are leaving the question of adding to your reserves, open until we hear what you have to say, if you wish to say it. When the reserves are dealt with, whether they are kept as they are, or additions made to them after this Commission gets through they cannot be changed without the consent of the Indians, and your interests in the land will not, as heretofore, be subject to any control or interference by the Government of British Columbia. Now if you desire to give testimony with respect to your reserves etc., we will be prepared to hear it.
PETER BROWN:-- On behalf of all the Skidegate people I would ask you to adjourn the meeting till after lunch. We will put before you what we want, and our ideas, after lunch. We would then like to put one straight-forward question to you gentlemen.
------------------------ NOTES BY MR. COMMISSIONER MACDOWALL Commissioners Shaw and Macdowall had an interview with James Sterling and succeeded in convincing him that the members of the Commission were not biased in any way, and that they had no instructions from their respective Governments, irrespective of what is contained in the Commission.
----------------------------------- SOLOMON WILSON:-- I want to say, really in regard to what you are here for, will this interfere with any of our lawyer questions?
THE CHAIRMAN: I am not prepared to say. It may or it may not.
SOLOMON WILSON:- I want a true answer please.
THE CHAIRMAN:- I cannot give you any other answer.
SOLOMON WILSON:- If we were to ask you for anything will it interfere with our other claims?
  - 37 -  
 
6
THE CHAIRMAN:- I say it may. I cannot say whether it will or will not.
SOLOMON WILSON: Half of you people say it would not interfere......    
THE CHAIRMAN: Who are the people who told you it would interfere?
SOLOMON WILSON:- Mr. Tyson for one.
THE CHAIRMAN:- Mr. Tyson is not a member of the Commission, and we are not prepared to say whether it will or will not interfere with your other interests.
SOLOMON WILSON:- Then you are leaving us to risk it?
THE CHAIRMAN:- Well, I will not tell you that it will, and I will not tell you that it will not, becuase I don't know.
THE CHAIRMAN: (To the Interpreter) After hearing what this man has said to them, what conclusion have they come to with respect to giving testimony as to the quality of the reserves, and as to any additional lands they may require,or any other matters affecting their reserves?
THE INTERPRETER:- Mr. Wilson's idea when he got up to ask you that question, as to whether anything that was stated would interfere with the matter lawyer Clark has got in hand, was he wanted to know if we would have the right to vote and we also wanted to ask you for 160 acres, and we wanted to find out if asking these things would interfere with our other business which lawyer Clark has in hand.
THE CHAIRMAN:- I am not prepared to say whether it will or will not. I say it may.
THE INTERPRETER: We have just got a telegram from Prince Rupert, from Peter Kelly, saying "Make the Commissioners wait".
MR. SHAW: Who is Peter Kelly?
THE INTERPRETER:-- He is a member of this band, and one of our advisors. He is at present at New Westminster College, studying for the ministry. We would like the Commission to wait until he comes, as he has got a holiday on purpose to appear before the Commission.
--------------------------
NOTE BY THE CHAIRMAN On being interrogated as to whether any person is prepared to testify as to the character of the reserves, the population thereof, and state as to the property on the reserves and the area of the reserves, I am asked if this will prejudice their rights as to the "Indian Title". I stated that it may, and thereupon being again asked if any person will testify no-one responded. I therefore hold that they do not wish to give testimony.
-----------------------
THE CHAIRMAN: (ADDRESSING THE INDIANS) I don't wish it to be understood, that we intend to force our rights under this Commission. If you do not wish to testify as to the reserves, but don't run away with the idea that the Commission is without power to act, because we could order witnesses to be summoned to give evidence before us, and if they refused to come we could arrest them, and bring them here, and when we got them before us, if they refused to testify we could imprison them, but we don't intend to take that course at all. We don't desire to act in any unkind way towards the Indians. We want to maintain good feeling all round, but we are going to get the facts with respect to what we want all the same, and we are going to call witnesses ourselves, and that course having been entered on our books, whatever evidence we take would not prejudice you, becuase we will produce the evidence and you won't. If you call the witnesses it might prejudice you as I have stated. If we call the witnesses it won't.       
-38-
 
 7
That is all. This tribe don't want any addition to their villages. Any evidence which the Indians gave in which they asked for increases on their Reserves might prejudice their claims with respect to "Indian Title", now we propose to call evidence, and any evidence that is called by us cannot prejudice your claims. Any evidence that is taken istaken at the distinct instance of the Commission.
THOMAS DEASY, INDIAN AGENT WAS THEN SWORN.
Before any evidence could be taken, PAUL JONES, rose and said: "I am pretty well on in age now, and I have experienced quite a lot of trouble in times gone by, over our land, and seeing you people here today has brought back the old spirit again.”
------------------------ HENRY GREEN said :- "Mr. Chairman and other Commissioners, I want to know if you can do anything towards helping us in a local matter. Right here in this village we have a musical band and we have hired a man from Victoria - Arthur Soloman - who has improved our Band quite a lot, and we have gone to Prince Rupert three times and won the contest for the Cup. The Indian Agent and Mr. Tyson have told us that the very next time we have a Band practice within the Reserve, they will put Arthur Solomon off the Reserve. Now what do you think about that? We will never have a better chance than this to put before you our grievance in this matter."
THE CHAIRMAN:-- We will report this matter to the Government, that is all we can do.
HENRY GREEN:  If you are going to allow our Band instructor to be taken away from us, you might just as well take away the School Teacher and the Missionary as well.
THE CHAIRMAN:- What have you to say regarding this matter Mr. Deasy?
INDIAN AGENT DEASY:-- I might say that all I have done in connection with the Band Instructor has been to report to the Department of Indian Affairs, that he is not in my estimation a fit man to be allowed to live on the Reserve, and they have instructed me to prohibit him from living on the Reserve. I have carried out the Instructions of the Department in the matter. A complaint was made to me regarding this man, and upon investigation I found out it was true, and the man had to go. The Band Instructor was informed that he could not live on the Reserve.
HENRY GREEN:- You said you would not allow him to come on the reserve any more?
MR. DEASY:- Who did I tell that to?
HENRY GREEN:-To Willie Russ.
INDIAN AGENT DEASY (To the Commission) I might say that there has been considerable correspondence with the Department on this matter. All the letters are on file in the office. I had my instructions from the Department and I have carried out those instructions in their entirety.
DR. McKENNA: What was your reason for taking action in this matter?
A.    He was a drinking man.
Q.    Did he bring liquor on to the Reserve?
A.    No, He was living on the reserve which is contrary to the provisions of the Indian Act.
Q.    Did he ever come on to the Reserve drunk?
A.    Is there not a bandmaster living on an other reserve, who is a whiteman?
- 39 -  
 
8
A.    I hear so, but that is with the permission of the Department.
Q.    You reported this matter to the Department?
A.    Yes. I reported that I did not wish him to live on the reserve.
Q.    Did you say anything in your report about his drinking?
A.    I don't think so. I said that he was a man who I did not think should be on the reserve.
Q.    Was the reason because he was a drinking man?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Was this man a married man?
A.    No, he was a single man, and was boarding with Willie Russ.
Q.    Did you ever see him drinking?
A.    I have seen him drinking.
Q.    On the reserve?
A.    No.
Q.    Did you ever know this man to commit an improper act on the reserve?
A.    No. I can state though, that someone very prominent on the reserve objected to this man living on the reserve. I have no wish to mention names as I don't want to drag anybody into this business at all.
MR. SHAW: What about the statement attributed to you by the Indians, as to having this man arrested or put off the reserve? A.    I did not say that. I said he might come on the Reserve to teach the band, but not to live on the Reserve. He was on the Reserve today, and I introduced him to Mr. Young. He told me that the reason he was not teaching the band now was because there is "nothing in it".
HENRY GREEN:- The reason why Mr. Solomon is here today, is because we hired a gasoline boat to bring him here. It had been our intention to bring the band down to the boat to meet the Commission. We are short of one of our best Cornet players, and Arthur Solomon can play that instrument pretty well. If you can give us any sort of an answer it is our intention to practice this Winter for two or three months.
MR. SHAW: (To Henry Green) Would you be willing to have this man live off the reserve and come to teach your Band?
HENRY GREEN:- No. He lives too far away and it would not be fair to ask him to walk 3 or 4 miles to and from his work each day for two or three months. A man likes to live where his work is.
THE CHAIRMAN:- All we can do is to report the matter to the Government.
MR. SHAW (To Indian Agent Deasy) When the complaints were made to you about this man, did you investigate and find out whether there was any truth in them?
INDIAN AGENT DEASY: Yes I did.
INDIAN AGENT DEASY (To Commission) In regard to Arthur Solomon, I would like to ask this man (Henry Green) a question or two.
(TO HENRY GREEN) Were you a member of the band when the Cup was won in Prince Rupert the first time?
- 40 -  
 
9
A.    Yes, I was.
Q.    Was Solomon your leader on that occasion?
A.    No, Arthur Moody was the leader of the band on that occasion.
Q.    You know that Arthur Solomon was there, but the reason he did not lead the band on that occasion, was because all the players had to be Indians, that is so far as the contest was concerned?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Did not Solomon play in the band at the Concert in the evening?
A.    Yes.
Q.    After the Cup was won and the concert was over, was there not some drinking in the Hall?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Was it Champagne that was drunk?
A.    Yes.
Q.    And you had some?
A.    Yes.
DR. McKENNA: How much did you have?
A.    Just one drink.
Q.    Was that all the others had too?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Did Mr. Solomon buy this liquor for you?
A.    No.
Q.    Did he himself give you any liquor to drink?
A.    No. It was ready for us when we got home to our Hotel.
-----------------------
s.s. "QUEEN CITY" September 15th, 1913. EXAMINATION OF INDIAN AGENT THOMAS DEASY, with respect to SKIDEGATE INDIAN RESERVES. THOMAS DEASY, INDIAN AGENT, was recalled and examined by Mr. Young:-
Q.    Now the Skidegate tribe has nine reserves?
A.    Yes sir.
Q.    And they aggregate 1613 acres?
A.    Yes Sir.
Q.    With certain fishing stations defined in the schedule?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What is the population of the tribe?
A.    On the 31st March this year it was 232.
Q.    How many heads of families?
- 41 –  
 
10
A.    81 (eighty-one)
Q.    You are familiar with the large reserve where the village is from personal knowledge of it?
A.    Yes.
Q.    The village is situated on the No. 1 reserve?
A.    Yes.
Q.    That is 854 acres?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What is the character of the land there?
A.    Rocky.
Q.    Is there any part of it suitable for gardening or farming purposes?
A.    A portion of it is.
Q.    How much land outside the land occupied by the village - the houses, the road, and the like - is suitable for agricultural purposes?
A.    A good piece of land at each end of the reserve. Towards the Skidegate oil works in one direction, and towards Rose Spit in the other direction.
DR. McKENNA: Roughly speaking what would be the acreage of those two good ends?
A.    50 acres each.
MR. YOUNG: Outside of that what is the nature of the balance? Could it be used for farming at all?
A.    No sir it is wood and rock.
Q.    Is there any good land timbered?
A.    No.
THE CHAIRMAN: Just at the back of the village there is some land which struck me as being possibly good for Agricultural purposes Out on the hill, just above where we held the meeting, by the School house?
A.    That is used by them as a kind of park.
Q.    It could be cultivated could it not?
A.    Well there might be 6 or 7 acres perhaps.
Q.    Is that outside of the Church property?
A.    There is no Church property.
MR. YOUNG: Can you speak of any other reserve, as to its character?
A.    Yes to two others.
Q.    What are they?
A.    Numbers 2 and 3.
Q.    No. 2 is about 7 miles North of the Reserve No. 1 and 62 acres in extent?
A.    Yes.
- 42 -  
 
11
Q.    What is the character of the land there? Good?
A.    Yes.
Q.    You have spoken also of a reserve at Maud Island, No. 4 on the eastern end of the Island. What is the character of the land there?
A.    There might be 50 acres of good soil there.
Q.    And the balance?
A.    Hilly and rocky.
Q.    Not arable land?
A.    I should not think so.
Q.    Do you know what use is made of the reserves outside of Nos. 1 and 2, by the Skidegate people?
A.    I understand they use them for fishing stations, when fishing for domestic purposes, and also for drying salmon for their own food.
Q.    Do you know whether there are any houses on there for temporary use?
A.    I have seen some from the vessel at Cumshewa.
Q.    As to the others you cannot speak?
A.    Only from complaints of the Indians.
Q.    What do you mean by that?
A.    They have complained of people stopping in their houses, and also destroying the houses by pulling them down and using them for firewood.
Q.    The people claim that their houses on the other reserves have been destroyed by whites and others?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Would you agree with what Dr. Spencer stated to me, that there are no reserves outside the 3 which you have mentioned, that are good for Agricultural purposes?
A.    I cannot speak as to that. I have not seen them.
Q.    How do these Skidegate Indians make their living? A.    By fishing.
Q.    That is by fishing for the Canneries, for the sale of fish and then fishing for their own domestic use?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Do they trap to any extent?
Very little.
Q.    Do you know where they go to trap?
A.    Anywhere on the West Coast.
Q.    Do they do any handlogging?
A.    No.
Q.    Is there any sawmill in the vicinity?
- 43 -  
 
12
A.    Yes there is at Skidegate.
Q.    Do they not employ the Indians?
A.    That sawmill is not in operation now.
DR. McKENNA: When it was in operation did they employ the Indians?
A.    They did not employ them in the mill.
Q.    Did the Indians log for the mill?
A.    Not that I know of.
THE CHAIRMAN:- You were not Indian Agent at the time the mill was working?
A.    Yes, I was, but they employed Japs principally.
Q.    Are there any Indians employed in the Oilworks at Skidegate?
A.    The Indians supply them with fish livers from which to make the oil.
Q.    Are they employed in the factory itself?
A.    I have seen about four of them.
Q.    Is the oilworks in operation now?
A.    It was up to a few days ago.
Q.    Is it likely to resume?
A.    It is closed down now. It is part of the B.C Fisheries plant.
Q.    Those large works at Aliford Bay are also idle?
A.    Yes.
Q.    They employed Indians?
A.    Yes quite a number were employed at Aliford Bay.
Q.    Have the Indians got an oilworks of their own?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Have they a plant on their own reserve?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Owned by individuals?
A.    Owned by a Company.
Q.    A company of Indians?
A.    Well, there are some whitemen concerned in it.
Q.    Does it employ many Indians apart from those in the Company?
A.    At times, to catch the dog fish.
THE CHAIRMAN:-- What has become of it?
A.    They operate at times now.
MR. YOUNG: - Do you know what it represents in capital?
A.    It did represent Ten thousand dollars.
- 44 -    
 
13
THE CHAIRMAN: - Do you mean to say that the share-holders are prencipally Indians?
A.    Yes.
MR. MACDOWALL: Do they own all the shares?
A.    No. Captain Oliver and a man named ---------are interested in it.
MR. YOUNG: - Are the Indians making much money out of it? A.    I heard from the book-keeper a few nights ago that they have $1500.00 in the bank.
Q.    How many houses have the Indians at Skidegate?
A.    66 dwelling houses and 10 shanties.
DR. McKENNA: How do you distinguish between a dwelling house and a shanty?
A.    Well, shanties are the houses that some of them use for smoke houses, but sometimes they live in them.
Q.    What is the general character of the dwelling houses there?
A.    Good.
MR. YOUNG: - How do they compare with those at Masset?
A.    I think they are better.
Q.    Are they well supplied with household effects?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Have you valued the household effects of the band?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What value did you put upon them?
A.    The value of the household effects is about $6,000.00.
Q.    Some of the houses are well furnished with good serviceable modern furniture?
A.    Yes, far better than the average Indian home.
Q.    Have they some gasoline boats?
A.    Quite a number.
Q.    How many?
A.    I could not give you the exact number now. They had 14 when I took this census. I think they have four or five more in addition now. One they built and some they bought.
Q.    Have they any sailing boats and canoes?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Did you count them?
A.    Yes. There are 30 boats and 10 canoes.
Q.    Do they Indians carry on any business in the way of stores etc.?
A.    Yes.
Q.    About how many stores are there?
- 45 -  
 
14
A.    There are three in the Winter time.
Q.    Are they co-operative or individual?
A.    Well one is co-operative in connection with the oil-works.
Dr. McKENNA: That is, it is run in connection with the oil-works? A.    Yes.
DR. YOUNG: - There is a Methodist Church there?
A.    Yes.
Q.    An old church and a new church which is now in course of erection?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Did the Indians provide any money for the new church?
A.    Not that I know of. The Department bought the old church, paying $1,000.00 to the Methodist Church Missionary Society. They are using the old church now for religious services until such time as the new church is completed. A second church which was built is being used as a school house. The Church which is now being built is the third Church building they have had, and it will soon be ready for occupation. Then there is an old place which was used for a Salvation Army Hall, at one time.
Q.: THE CHAIRMAN: Who is building the New Church?
A.    The Methodist Church people in the East I think. It is not even being built by Indian labour.
MR. YOUNG: - There are three church buildings. One old Church is now being used as a school house. They hold services in the oldest church, and the new one is now nearly ready for occupation. Is that correct?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Do you know what the attendance at the school is?
A    I have it roughly - about 48.
Q.    That is a Day school is it not?
A.    Yes.
MR. WHITE: Is that the number on the register, or is that the average attendance?
A.    That is the number on the register.
MR. YOUNG: - Is the attendance "fair" or bad?
A.    Bad.
THE CHAIRMAN: Is it bad all the time?
A.    It is good in the winter but for 6, 7 or 8 months in the year it is very poor.
MR. YOUNG: - There is no boarding school on the Island?
A.    No.
Q.    Where do any people go to Boarding Schools, from Skidegate?
A.    To Chilliwack.
- 46 -
 
 
[b/w 14+15]
Q.     Do many go from that village to outside schools?
A.     No, Not many.    
Q.     Are any of the Skidegate Indiana inclined to farm.?
A.     I don’t think so
Q.     So that they are principally fishermen. ?.
A.     Yes they are.
Q.     Have the Indiana any cattle at Skidegate?.
A.     Yes some cows and bulls.
Q.     How many according to your census?.
A.     They have 15 milch cown, 5 young stock and 2 bulls.
Q.    I believe they, now have more bulls ?.
A.     They have 22 head of cattle.
Q.     How many horses.?
A.     There were 6 geldings and mares,and two foals on the 31st March last
Q.     Do they breed their own horses or buy them ?.
A.     They breed them.
Q.     Do they keep their awn stallions then ?.
A.     No. They borrow them from some of the ranchers.
Q.     There are 60 Chickens?.
A.     Yee.
Q.    Any pigs or sheep ?.
A.    No.
Q.     From some correspondence you have handed to me (EXHIBIT D25) I see that Cr. Spenser reported to you that a man named Dix had staked thevillage site at Cumshewa Inlet. Is that correct?.
A.     Yes.
Q.    He states "They have a graveyard and we have a church mission house besides many Indian houses, at the place”.    Is that correct ?.
A.    Yes. So far as I could see from the steamer.
Q.    Did you see the Church ?.
A.    No, but I saw buildings.
Q.     How many?
A.    A number. I could not say how many.
Q.    On the 25th of April 1913, you wrote a letter to Mr. McMullin the Assistant Commissioner of Lands at Prince Rupert, of which this is a copy. Is that correct ?.
A.     Yes.
Q.     You say that any statements made by you in this correspondence are correct?
- 47 -  
 
15
A.    Yes. THE CHAIRMAN (to Mr. Young) Who is the correspondence between?
A. MR. YOUNG (Replying to the Chairman) Between Mr. Deasy and the Assistant Commissioner of lands at Prince Rupert.
MR. YOUNG (Continuing cross-examination) The last letter in this correspondence is one from the Assistant Commissioner of lands at Prince Rupert to you, in which he states that he is in receipt of a letter from the Department, stating that the Surveyor General has been instructed to cancel the original survey of the above Pre-emption Record and eliminate from the said lot, the Indian buildings and lands?
A.    Yes.
Q.    So that any ground covered by Indian buildings and lands, would be open for allotment as a Reserve?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Have you had any trouble with the Reserve at Deena (No. 3)?
A.    Yes. Mr. Welsh took about 40 head of cattle over there, and as these were not fenced in, and there is a good range for cattle, they roamed over the Indians' land, and the Indians complained that his cattle were destroying some of their gardens. I spoke to Mr. Welsh about it and I arranged for the Indians to take me over, but they did not come for me, as they did not seem to wish to take me anywhere. They also complained that white men were fishing in the River, contrary to regulations.
Q.    In what respect were they breaking the regulations?
A.    They were fishing for salmon inside the river limits.
Q.    Did you make any further applications for additional lands for the Indians?
A.    No.
Q.    For what reason?
A.    The Indians would not tell me what they wanted.
Q.    You tried to get that information from them as well as you could?
A.    Yes.
Q.    And they never would locate the lands they wanted?
A.    No.
Q.    What is your own opinion as to their requiring additional reserves. Do you think they have enough land?
A.    No, I do not think they have enough land.
THE CHAIRMAN: - Have they enough land for their necessary requirements?
A.    Do you mean for the present, sir?
A.MR. MACDOWALL: - Could they use any additional lands immediately?
A.    No sir, under the present circumstances and conditions of the Indians they have no immediate use for more land.
DR. McKENNA: If they were prohibited from making any use of the adjoining Crown Lands, for any purpose, would they have in their reserves sufficient land to meet their reasonable requirements?
- 48 -  
 
16
A.    No sir.
MR. MACDOWALL: For what purpose do they require additional lands now?
A.    For cattle.
Q.    Where would they get these lands which would be fit for cattle?
A.    Along the east coast of the Island.
Q.    Is that pretty well all pre-empted or sold by the Government?
A.    Not all.
Q.    Do you think they would go in for cattle raising if they had these lands?
A.    That would depend upon the circumstances and requirements of the future.
Q.    How do these Indians make their living?
A.    The men by fishing, and the women and some of the children by working in the Canneries.
Q.    Do they make a good income?
A.    That depends upon the run of fish.
Q.    Seeing that they have so many gasoline launches and that they have such good houses and furniture, they must have had some money to provide all these?
A.    Last year they made good money .
Q.    Their principal mode of living is by fishing and they are not agriculturalists at all?
A.    That is so.
Q.    Well, taking that into consideration, do you think that the lands which they have just now are reasonable sufficient for their purposes? Taking into consideration the way in which they earn their living?
A.    For now, yes.
THE CHAIRMAN: - You said they did not make good money this year?
A.    That is so.
Q.    Have they made enough to "tide over" this year?
A.    The Chief Counsellor informed me a few days ago that they [did] not do so.
Q.    In a "bad" year, when they cannot "tide over" does the Government come to their assistance?
A.    We have never had to supply more than five or six in a year with food, and then only very little.
MR. MACDOWALL:- Are there many old people on these reserves, who are beyond work?
A.    No sir, they can usually use them in and around the canneries.
Q.    And they are really well-behaved    law-abiding people?
A.    Yes they are law-abiding, but some of them drink when they get the chance. We have more or less trouble through that.
- 49 –
 
17
Q.THE CHAIRMAN: - Where do they get the drink from?
A.    I don't know.
DR. McKENNA: - How does the Birth-rate compare with the death-rate during your incumbency of the Agency?
A.    They are lessening in this band. That is according to the best figures I can obtain.
Q.    For about how many years have they been lessening, do you know?
A.    They have been lessening pretty well all along.
THE CHAIRMAN: - What is the principal cause of this?
A.    Tubercolosis, and the children have influenza perhaps once or twice a year. The death rate is largest among the young children Last year there were seven births and 10 deaths.
MR. YOUNG: - I see, on reading your report for 1912, that you gave a very high report of the progress of the Indians. That report was justified, I suppose?
A.    Yes.
Q.    In that report you speak of their having a band, a Church Choir good buildings, etc etc. Is that correct?
A.    Yes.
Q.    You also stated that they were not content with the land they had. What was your reason for stating that?
A.    Well they told me they wanted more.
Q.    Were you then dealing with the claim of what is known as "Indian Title?"
A.    I was simply reporting what the Indians had said to me.
Q.    Have any of the Indians ever spoken to you about having more cattle? That    they would like to have more cattle?
A.    No. They are meeting with the same thing as at the other end of the Island. That is, with cattle being shot.
DR. McKENNA: When the Indians refused to indicate to you what additional lands, you should stake out for them, did they give you any reason.
A.    Well, they have always been talking about the "Indian Lands" question.
Q.    Did they intimate to you that their indicating the additional lands which you were prepared to stake for them, might prejudice their claim to the "Indian Title" ?
A.    Yes. Even when getting the right-of-way for the road through the village.
THE CHAIRMAN - Are you speaking now of the Skidegate Indians? A.    Yes.
MR. YOUNG: - You have had recent correspondence with regard to your Masset applications? Correspondence between you and Mr. McMullin, the Assistant Commissioner of Lands, at Prince Rupert, and with the Secretary of the Department with respect to your application for additional land at North Island?
- 50 -
 
18
Q.    That is what relates to land at Igeria Bay and two other places and the net result is that your applications have been acknowledged, and that Mr. Doughty withdraws his application?
A.    Yes.
EXHIBIT D26 Was handed in.
Q.    You were to have given the heads of families of the Masset Indians here, today. Have you got that statement ready? A.    Yes. I make them now 105.
THE CHAIRMAN: - At Masset, you have some evidence about staking some property for the Indians? Who was with you?
A.    Sometimes Mr. Green, and at other times, Indians.
Q.    At whose instigation did you do that?
A.    At the instance of the Indians.
MR. MACDOWALL: - And with the authority of the Indian Department? A.    Yes, and the places were pointed out to me by Indians.
MR. SHAW: You say there are 105 heads of families at Masset, is that the men only?
A.    That is all males over 18 and widows.
THE CHAIRMAN: - These properties were staked then, with the intention of getting them as additional reserves, were they?
A.    Yes sir, they were.
-----------------------
- 51 -
 
ROYAL COMMISSION ON INDIAN AFFAIRS FOR THE PROVINCE OF B. C.
Board Room, Victoria, B. C. November 12th, 1913.
 
QUEEN CHARLOTTE AGENCY MEMORANDUM BY THE CHAIRMAN Mr. Ashdown Green was in attendance, and the letter of Mr. McGregor Young of the 27th September, 1913, to the Secretary of this Commission, together with the memorandum referred to therein, the letter of Mr. Renwick, Deputy Minister of Lands, for the Province of B. C., dated 14th August, 1913, - also atatached to Mr. McGregor Young's letter, and Mr. Ashdown Green's report of 27th June, 1912, to the Secretary of the Department of Indian Affairs at Ottawa, on File No. 403707 of the said Department; having been placed in his hands, he states that if he proceeded to the Lands Office here and made enquiry, he could give no more definite answer in reference to the matter of that Report, than is contained in the letter of the Deputy Minister of Lands.
-----------------------
DR. McKENNA:  (To Mr. Ashdown Green) When you prepared the Re- port referred to, you did so after making enquiry at the Department of Lands, here?
A.    Yes, I did.
------------------------
-52-
 
ROYAL COMMISSION ON INDIAN AFFAIRS FOR THE PROVINCE OF B. C.
BOARD ROOM, VICTORIA, B. C. SEPTEMBER 30th, 1913.
 
  MR. ASHDOWN GREEN, B.C.L.S., was examined by Mr. Young: Q.    Mr. Green, we want to get some further information from you in regard to the character of the Skidegate reserves. You have visited all the reserves, have you?
A.    Yes. A long time ago, and I cannot say I went over them well. I looked at them from the beach. One can generally tell from the beach what the character of the land is.
Q.    And then you have refreshed your mind from the field notes?
A.    Yes.
Q.    And you have them with you now?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Do you know No. 3 reserve, Deena, at the head of South Bay, Skidegate Inlet?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What is the soil like there?
A.    The northern part is grass, flooded.
Q.    Do you mean that it is overflowed at times or always?
A.    At very high tides.
Q.    What about the southern part?
A.    That is heavily timbered.
Q.    What sort of timber?
A.    Principally hemlock.
Q.    What is the quality of the land if the timber was taken off?
A.    That one can hardly tell because it is all covered with moss except where the rock is. In all probability it is sandy and gravelly underneath.
THE CHAIRMAN: Is hemlock good for merchantable purposes?
A.    No, hardly, They are beginning to turn some of it into pulp now, I believe, but generally speaking it is not much used.
MR. YOUNG: You are now reading from the Field Notes, in which it
- 53-
 
2
says "Spruce, hemlock, fern, berry bushes, small cedar - heavily timbered soil mossy". Are you not?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What proportion of this reserve, if any, could be used for garden or agrcultural purposes?
A.    I don't think any except the flooded land which might be used if dyked.
Q.    The field notes confirm your previous statement that the southern portion has been overflowed grass land?
A.    Yes.
Q.    What do you say as to No. 5, Lagins, a reserve of 40 acres on the left bank of the La gins River, at the head of Long Arm Skidegate Inlet?
A.    There is a little grass land on the North East corner.
Q.    How many acres?
A.    That it does not say (Referring to field note).
Q.    What portion of it would be grass land, do you think?
A.    Only a very small portion. About six acres roughly.
Q.    What is the balance of that reserve?
A.    The balance seems to be all moss, with some spruce and hemlock. Berry bushes, soil mossy and a few cedars and fallen logs.
Q.    Would anything outside of the 6 acres you mention, be suitable for farming or gardening?
A.    No.
Q.    Would those six acres require dyking?
A.    I should not think so.
Q.    There is a small stream in that reserve?
A.    Yes, which comes in at the post.
Q.    Do you know of your own knowledge, whether they use it as a fishing station?
A.    I don't know, but in all probability they fish there. It is a stream larger than a brook (about a chain wide).
Q.    Now about No. 6, Kaste - 38 acres in Copper Bay, what about That?
  - 54 -
 
3  
A.    I remember that very well. I was there in 1863 and put down
the shaft in the copper mine.
Q.    What about that place?
A.    It is a little grassy at the mouth of the River. It is overflowed.
Q.    How large in area?
A.    Oh, very small!
Q.    An acre or two?
A.    About 4 acres.
Q.    Are those four acres overflowed?
A.    Yes, at High-water.
Q.    And the balance of the land, exclusive of these 4 acres?
A.    Very worthless. There is rock at the foot of a steep bank.
Q.    There is a stream there as well?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Do you know No. 7 - Cumshewas?
A.    Yes. I remember that very well. It is high mountain, and the village is on the beach.
Q.    Any arable land there?
A.    None at all. A small potato patch may be - that is all.
Q.    Is there a stream there?
A.    No.
Q.    A beach?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Is that an old Indian village?
A.    Yes. It was old when I was there in 1863.
Q.    Were there any evidences of occupation then?
A.    Yes. I counted 4,000 Indians at Skidegate then. Now I don't think there are 400.
MR. COMMISSIONER SHAW: Were all those Indians residents of Skidegate or had they gathered there just for some special occasion?
A.    I could not say.
Q.: MR. YOUNG: This reserve is timbered too, is it not?
- 55 –
 
4
A.    Yes.
Q: THE CHAIRMAN: What kind of timber?
A.    Spruce and hemlock.
Q.    It is worthless anyway?
A.    Yes. No use at all, unless they could make pulp out of it at some time.
MR. YOUNG: Do you know Skidance, containing 169 acres at the southern entrance to Cumshewas Harbour?
A.    Yes, I remember that very well.
Q.    What about it?
A.    On the beach there is a little open land fit for gardens.
Q.    How much?
A.    It is a long narrow strip, in patches here and there.
Q.    No land that could be ploughed, but some that might be made into small gardens?
A.    Yes. There is a timbered mountain there. There seems to be more spruce on that than usual.
Q.    Looking at the field notes it would appear that the greater part of that reserve is mountain?
A.    Yes.
Q.    Is it high mountain?
A.    Yes, it is pretty high, about 800 feet. THE CHAIRMAN: Rocky mountain?
A.    No, there is not much rock on it. There is more spruce than usual. There is Salal there, and where that is found it is gravelly.
MR. YOUNG: "Soil mossy", it says in the field notes. Is that right?
A.    Yes.
Q.    It says in the field notes "At the foot of a very steep hill". What would you say as to that reserve being available for cultivation?
A.    I think if you got 5 acres of cultivable land off it, you would have as much as you could get.
- 56 -
 
5
Q.    No. 9 (TANOO). 65 acres in extent. 46 miles south of Skidegate Inlet. What about that reserve?
A.    I remember that very well. There were some Totem poles and burial grounds there. It was almost deserted when I went there with Judge O'Reilly. The Indians said they wanted it because it was a good fishing station.
Q.    What is the character of the land there?
A.    Mossy. I should say that that reserve is no use for any purpose except fishing.
Q.    It is an old burial ground, there are a great number of totem poles there, and it was old Indian village. Is that correct?
A.    Yes. The Indians deserted that place and Cumshewas the same. They said they would all move up to Skidegate to live together.
Q.    What about the No. 1 reserve?
A.     There is very little good land beyond where the village is. There is a little good garden land at the back. There are very large boulders there, and considerable gravel. On the first bench it is rather better land.
THE CHAIRMAN: Just where we rose up a short distance and ascended to the Church, that land did not appear to me to be rocky. A.    It is all gravel there except a little bit of rock. Further up, the mountain comes down very low, right to the village. Then it verges into the flat that the village is on. You could grow apples and things like that there, but it is not land that you could plough, as it is too steep until you get to the village. It is too steep to do anything with, but at the same time there is some vegetation there.
Q.    Mr. Deasy told us that there was a good piece of open land on each end of the reserve.
Q.    There is very little down here (indicating on plan).
MR. YOUNG: When you say "down here", you mean towards the Oilworks? A.    Yes. There is little or nothing to speak of. Q.    As we approach the village, the mountain comes right down to the ground.
- 57 -
 
6
Q.    It would appear from your evidence that there is very little land fit for agricultural purposes at all. Is that correct?
A.    Yes, there is very little good agricultural land in the Queen Charlotte Islands at all because it is too steep.
THE CHAIRMAN: Is it good for grazing?
A.    No, it is all moss. At Massett there is good grazing land. It is gravelly and flat, but the cattle apparently do very well, what cattle there are, which I believe number about 20 or 30. Cattle in that part are apt to break their legs very easily on account of falling into holes.
---o0o--
NOTE:  The applications which Mr. Young put in with reference to the Queen Charlotte Islands were compiled by Mr. Green from information received from the Indian Agent and also from personal inspection. In some cases Mr. Green made sketches of the Massett applications which have been put in. That list of applications was sent in to the Provincial Department of Lands with a letter for Mr. Green in August, 1912.
- 58 -