Discussion

1. Dr. Immanuel Wallerstein remarked that, until this session, speakers referred to science and technology in the sense of physical and biological science and technology only. In this session speakers included the social sciences. We must emphasize the role of the social sciences when we speak of the endogenous capacity of the developing countries. Mr. Blue said in his paper that current ecumenical sciences can benefit from the regional traditional sciences. This may apply also to the social sciences which can benefit also from the traditional cultures of the East.

2. Dr. Salustiano del Campo made four points. First the type of political power, institutional or democratic and its relation to the institutions and development of science and technology in different societies. Second he called attention to the social structure of Europe at the time science and technology developed in comparison to the social situations of some of the societies where science and technology originated. Third, he put the question of the role social science has played in the spread of science and technology. Fourth he mentioned the particular case of some intermediate societies, modern but traditional, developed and developing at the same time, and invited the interest of participants to get more thorough knowledge of such societies.

3. Dr. Imre Marton commented as follows:

La communication prntpar le professeur Miroslav Pecujlic, recteur de l'Universite Belgrade, m'encourage a partager avec vous des prcupations li a ['impact des distorsions, des tensions nomiques et sociales sur le syst de formation dans le secondaire et le supeur, de m que sur le comportement des diants vis-is du savoir et de leur mission sociale, ceci dans les trots mondes.

11 s'agit selon moi d'une surproduction de dipl et d'une sous-production d'intellectuels visant a la crivitcientifique et a une attitude critique vis-is d'eux-ms et des maux locaux. Je manifeste une exacerbation de la contradiction entre travail manuel et intellectuel. Cette course effre des jeunes en Europe occidentale vers le diplrnd a deux visses contradictoires: d'une part relment du niveau de qualification professionnelle et de la culture grais, d'autre part mis, dation du travail manuel, productif, insertion a tout prix dans la soci de consommation. En raison de la dalification et de la surqualification du travail manuel et intellectuel on observe un secteur traditionnel et moderne dans les sphs des activitde production matelle et intellectuelle. Masse croissants de manoeuvres recrutes avant tout parmi les travail leurs angers dans l es pays capitalistes dloppes et mince couche de spalistes hautement qualifies. Une partie importante des dipl deviennent parasitaires ou des gentleman's dipl. Des phms analogues se man infestent de nos jours dans les pays social sites. En Afrique j'ai lement observe que la lutte contra l'analphabsme, I 'extension du syst scolaire, l'elevation rapide du taux de scolarisation, donc cette dialectique ascendants, it pervertie par une dialectique ntive selon ['expression utilis par le professeur Abdel-Malek. Les scolarises du secondaire fuient le travail manuel, le village, et prrent grossir dans les vines les masses flottantes, deuvr, le sous-prolriat.

Les dipl vent inss dans la fonction publique indndamment des besoins de la soci. Ils visent a cr une client tribale, ethnique ou autre pour satisfaire leurs ambitions personnelles et politiques. L'le en partie est source de che et de la production d'une te parasitaire, bureaucratique, ceci en raison des dntations nomiques, culturelles, sociales, rationnels, reproduisant le sous-dloppement.

L'intt de ce snaire international est d'aborder les grand probls du monde d'aujourd'hui en avant recours a une approche globalisante, analytique, et critique, rejetant les variantes de l'europentrisme et du tiermondisme. Je voudrais conclure en disant que la probltique du rde la science et de la technique dans la transformation du monde doit inclure les probls de la formation, de la dalification massive, et de la surqualification tistes de la force de travail manuel et intellectuel.

4. Dr. Alexander Kwapong raised three points. First, he referred to the UN Conference on S&T for Development (UNCSTD) in Vienna, August 1979, where he noted the dichotomy which existed between scientists and politicians. There was a gap between the two. Second, as an African living in Japan he was interested in the Japanese experience. His great hero is the founder of that dynasty which helped to create modern Japan. History of Japan should be of great interest to all developing countries. Historical dimensions must be underlined again and again in development, which is a long process of gestation. It is a question of interaction between exogenous and endogenous factors. He referred to the observation of Dr. Damjanovic who said that it is cheap to buy computers but it is expensive to create human skills. One should be aware of the importance which should be given to education. An infrastructure of human experience must be built. People must be motivated, mobilized, educated, trained, and naturally disciplined. Third, he referred to this seminar and said that this occasion should not end here. The knowledge conveyed here must be disseminated. It must be applied to realities. We should always move from theory into practice, and our ideas must be brought out.

5. Dr. A. N. Pandeya commented on Dr. Nakaoka's statement about how he was motivated by Dr. Pandeya to write about the Japanese experience. Credit should be given not to him but to vice-rector Dr. Mushakoji and to Dr. Anouar Abdel-Malek. What happened in Kyoto was relevant. Bridges are between the minds of peoples of different cultures. Commenting on the papers he said that they are rich, but he had three comments to make. First, that science and technology become tremendous forces when linked with the culture and tradition of a nation. This fusion is our duty, and the UNU should also attend fully to the problem. Second, the famous question raised by Weber on how it comes that science and technology and capitalism were European creations, is a false question. Science and technology are basic components of knowledge, and necessary ones in any culture. No culture or civilization can claim that it created science by itself. Our aim is to develop the capacity of generating knowledge. All the Third World is confronted with the question of creating the capacity to generate new knowledge. Third, we must seek to generate and disseminate knowledge to benefit the deprived sections of society. In India 28 per cent of the population are still composed of tribal groups. They are economically and politically the most deprived. This question should be given priority. Some disastrous views call for not disrupting these societies. We cannot leave people as museum pieces. Man is the target, and should remain our target all the time.

6. Dr. Luiz Pinguelli Rosa said that in general we put together science and technology, but sometimes it would be better to separate one from another to understand some aspects of the question which concerns the underdeveloped countries. Sometimes there is a large distance between the scientific knowledge and its applications to transform the world. I will take an example from the talk of Gregory Blue in this session. Magnetism was known in old China but it has been applied in large scale only by Western civilization, starting in Spain and Portugal in navigation at the time of the Commercial Revolution. What we can conclude is that we must have objective conditions for the applications of science, otherwise we do not have technology coming from the scientific knowledge. This is important for our discussion because many underdeveloped countries have put a lot of money into developing science - e.g., Brazil and Argentina - without profit to productive activities. The economic and political conditions of these countries lead them to buy everything they need from multinational corporations, even the design of the simplest product we can imagine. So we cannot discuss scientific and technological policy without discussing also the role of multinational corporations in the underdeveloped countries. We have spoken here very much of the internationalization as a boundary condition imposed by the multinational corporations, but if we are interested in the transformation of the world, we have to discuss better this kind of internationalization, instead of taking it as immutable input data.

7. Dr. Anouar Abdel-Malek in a short comment on Dr. Rosa's intervention warned of the dangers of utopianism against vision. He referred to conflicting priorities, and how we cannot speak of bad science and technology.

8. Dr. Celso Furtado ended the session by referring to the relation between science and civilization, the nature of science and ecumenical science.